Religion - Page 14

fable · 01-22-2002, 07:36 PM

Drake, Cerek's on course. As I mentioned before, "pagan" is a very broad term, and can define a host of religions (which I won't even begin to list). Wicca is one of 'em. Like any subclass of a larger class, it includes characteristics of the larger class, plus characteristics that are entirely its own.

So as Cerek pointed out, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and more are all Christians. Wiccans, non-Wiccan witches, so-called "magical societies," revivalist groups worshipping a particular nationalist pantheon (Norse, British, Italian and Teutonic groups for a fact exist), etc, are all pagans. But they aren't identical to one another, by any means. You wouldn't expect a Southern Baptist to utilize the same rituals as a Roman Catholic, would you? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

Cerek the Barbaric · 01-23-2002, 12:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fable:
I'd like to open a new theme here in the Religion topic for all: what are the requirements, in your opinion, for a "religion?" Not a religious movement, though we could discuss that as well, with the understanding that it's not necessarily the same; but a religion.

Any takers?

Fable,

This is a surprisingly difficult question to answer. Kudos to you for asking one of the most thought-provoking questions I've seen in a looooong time.

Keep in mind that any answers are going to be based on the underlying concepts of the individual's chosen religious practice, so a truly generic definition will be difficult to obtain.

Having said that, here is my answer.

1. There must be some "higher power or being" that the followers worship or look to for guidance.

2. There should be an established or accepted method by which the followers can either contact or petition the "higher power".

3. There should be a Code of Ethics instructing the followers how to conduct themselves.

4. There should be some method of recruiting new members to the faith.

5. There should be authority figures (cleric/priest/shaman/etc) available that followers can look to for guidance.

6. I don't know if there has to be established ceremonies or rituals to qualify as a religion. I don't know of any specific rituals that New Age followers have to observe, but I could be wrong. If so, I would say that ceremonies and rituals should be a mandatory component.

Whew! That's about all I can come up with right now. It will be interesting to see the opinions from some of the others.

01-23-2002, 04:27 PM

I think that first of all you must have a framework, you must believe in some form of divine force that has a certain control over aspects of the universe. To make up a religion you must have a structure to them. These usually include:

A method of contacting the divine force
A set of ethics and/or teachings
A promise of rewards that you will gain in this life or the next, by believing in this particular religion.
a method of expanding the religion

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

Yorick · 01-23-2002, 04:41 PM

There's a big difference between (theological) faith, religion and spirituality.

Religion:
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back.
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Thus you can have religion without a god, just as you can know God without a religion. Christianity for example is meant to NOT be a religion, and is at it's best when it is not so. It's meant to be a relationship, so when it morphs into ritualised religion it's time to get the cobwebs out IMO. Just like if a marriage descends into mindless repetitive actions with no genuine feeling or thought.

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Drake · 01-23-2002, 07:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:

I understand that you want to give equal weight to both sides, so that you can choose for yourself who is correct. But, for future reference, consider the expertise and knowledge of your sources. Garnet is an active practitioner of the Wiccan religion. I mean no disrespect to your friend, but is he also a Wiccan, or was he repeating something he read on the internet?

thanks. you are quite right Garnet, Epona and any one else who said it should have been enough for me to decide what as right. oh and it was me that was repeating what I read on the internet. but he did say he was wiccan too.

quote:
Originally posted by fable:

Drake, Cerek's on course. As I mentioned before, "pagan" is a very broad term, and can define a host of religions (which I won't even begin to list). Wicca is one of 'em. Like any subclass of a larger class, it includes characteristics of the larger class, plus characteristics that are entirely its own.
So as Cerek pointed out, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and more are all Christians. Wiccans, non-Wiccan witches, so-called "magical societies," revivalist groups worshipping a particular nationalist pantheon (Norse, British, Italian and Teutonic groups for a fact exist), etc, are all pagans. But they aren't identical to one another, by any means. You wouldn't expect a Southern Baptist to utilize the same rituals as a Roman Catholic, would you?

understood thanks and no I wouldn't.

Garnet FalconDance · 01-23-2002, 07:20 PM

Drake,

no problem. I just became so frustrated at your (apparent) inability to grasp the difference between what you were saying and what I was saying. I know you were simply trying to gather information to amke your own decision.

In the end, only you can decide what is 'right' for you.

Tarox · 01-23-2002, 07:28 PM

Ok I'm going to be totally British here

All this Wicca basket stuff and Pagan what not
Is it a coincidence you all seem to be from the USA
I truly believe the USA is really messed up in the head when it comes to wierd religions and ritual cults and other mumbo jumbo
Its always the sort of thing people say about then say its from the US and that kinda explains it all as if its an excuse for wierd shit

Ok im not saying we dont have a few people like that in the rest of the civilised world but the US always seems to be teeming with all this crap.

Anytime there is a new religion or cult or some sorta wierdo following it comes from over there....

Dunno good luck to you all im not saying anything against you as such
just something i noticed

Yorick · 01-23-2002, 07:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tarox:
Ok I'm going to be totally British here

All this Wicca basket stuff and Pagan what not
Is it a coincidence you all seem to be from the USA
I truly believe the USA is really messed up in the head when it comes to wierd religions and ritual cults and other mumbo jumbo
Its always the sort of thing people say about then say its from the US and that kinda explains it all as if its an excuse for wierd shit

Ok im not saying we dont have a few people like that in the rest of the civilised world but the US always seems to be teeming with all this crap.

Anytime there is a new religion or cult or some sorta wierdo following it comes from over there....

Dunno good luck to you all im not saying anything against you as such
just something i noticed

Actually Tarox, until the board went down there as many English Wiccans as American here.

As to your charge, I guess there are more "wierdos" in the USA than in Britain. But then again there are MORE PEOPLE aren't there? Roughly four times as many. So there are probaly more intelligent people, more artists, more inventors, more boring people, and more closed minded bigots who slag off other nations too.

Here's to world peace. Let's let it start on the internet.....

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Garnet FalconDance · 01-23-2002, 07:45 PM

Tarox

I choose not to take personal issue with your words, but I question your motivation for the comments.

fable · 01-23-2002, 07:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Tarox:
Ok I'm going to be totally British here

All this Wicca basket stuff and Pagan what not
Is it a coincidence you all seem to be from the USA
I truly believe the USA is really messed up in the head when it comes to wierd religions and ritual cults and other mumbo jumbo

I'm less inclined to look at a person's beliefs by the religious lapel pin they wear, than by the actions of that individual, and by the depth of view they bring to those beliefs. Obviously, you can't tell anything about my actions--except that I waste an inordinate amount of time up here.

By as for the weirdness and mumbo jumboness of my views, I've worshipped according to my beliefs, which I thought about and felt about very strongly, for more than twenty years. I'm not a faddist. I'm not a person who jumps swiftly from one strange thing into another. I'd like to think I'm a person of considerable faith whose religion lies outside the modern mainstream--and that's all.

I'm curious what you know about witches, that enables you to judge with precision and insight its "cult" nature. What books have you read? How many witches of honest credentials have you spoken with? I look forward to your response. [img]smile.gif[/img]

01-23-2002, 12:24 PM	#132
Cerek the Barbaric Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: October 29, 2001 Location: North Carolina Age: 61 Posts: 3,257	quote: Originally posted by fable: I'd like to open a new theme here in the Religion topic for all: what are the requirements, in your opinion, for a "religion?" Not a religious movement, though we could discuss that as well, with the understanding that it's not necessarily the same; but a religion. Any takers? Fable, This is a surprisingly difficult question to answer. Kudos to you for asking one of the most thought-provoking questions I've seen in a looooong time. Keep in mind that any answers are going to be based on the underlying concepts of the individual's chosen religious practice, so a truly generic definition will be difficult to obtain. Having said that, here is my answer. 1. There must be some "higher power or being" that the followers worship or look to for guidance. 2. There should be an established or accepted method by which the followers can either contact or petition the "higher power". 3. There should be a Code of Ethics instructing the followers how to conduct themselves. 4. There should be some method of recruiting new members to the faith. 5. There should be authority figures (cleric/priest/shaman/etc) available that followers can look to for guidance. 6. I don't know if there has to be established ceremonies or rituals to qualify as a religion. I don't know of any specific rituals that New Age followers have to observe, but I could be wrong. If so, I would say that ceremonies and rituals should be a mandatory component. Whew! That's about all I can come up with right now. It will be interesting to see the opinions from some of the others. __________________ [img]\"http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/cerek/cerektsrsig.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Cerek the Calmth

01-23-2002, 04:27 PM	#133
Dramnek_Ulk Guest Posts: n/a	I think that first of all you must have a framework, you must believe in some form of divine force that has a certain control over aspects of the universe. To make up a religion you must have a structure to them. These usually include: A method of contacting the divine force A set of ethics and/or teachings A promise of rewards that you will gain in this life or the next, by believing in this particular religion. a method of expanding the religion [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]

01-23-2002, 04:41 PM	#134
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	There's a big difference between (theological) faith, religion and spirituality. Religion: Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back. Date: 13th century 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith Thus you can have religion without a god, just as you can know God without a religion. Christianity for example is meant to NOT be a religion, and is at it's best when it is not so. It's meant to be a relationship, so when it morphs into ritualised religion it's time to get the cobwebs out IMO. Just like if a marriage descends into mindless repetitive actions with no genuine feeling or thought. [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ] __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

01-23-2002, 07:16 PM	#135
Drake Baaz Draconian Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: ? Age: 40 Posts: 729	quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I understand that you want to give equal weight to both sides, so that you can choose for yourself who is correct. But, for future reference, consider the expertise and knowledge of your sources. Garnet is an active practitioner of the Wiccan religion. I mean no disrespect to your friend, but is he also a Wiccan, or was he repeating something he read on the internet? thanks. you are quite right Garnet, Epona and any one else who said it should have been enough for me to decide what as right. oh and it was me that was repeating what I read on the internet. but he did say he was wiccan too. quote: Originally posted by fable: Drake, Cerek's on course. As I mentioned before, "pagan" is a very broad term, and can define a host of religions (which I won't even begin to list). Wicca is one of 'em. Like any subclass of a larger class, it includes characteristics of the larger class, plus characteristics that are entirely its own. So as Cerek pointed out, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and more are all Christians. Wiccans, non-Wiccan witches, so-called "magical societies," revivalist groups worshipping a particular nationalist pantheon (Norse, British, Italian and Teutonic groups for a fact exist), etc, are all pagans. But they aren't identical to one another, by any means. You wouldn't expect a Southern Baptist to utilize the same rituals as a Roman Catholic, would you? understood thanks and no I wouldn't. __________________ &Neil<br />Winner of both \'Arledrian\'s Weirdest Thread of 2003 Award\'<br />And the \'Most pointless thread Lavindathar Has Ever Seen Award 2002\'

01-23-2002, 07:20 PM	#136
Garnet FalconDance Mephistopheles Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: deep within the sylvan splendor.... Age: 60 Posts: 1,443	Drake, no problem. I just became so frustrated at your (apparent) inability to grasp the difference between what you were saying and what I was saying. I know you were simply trying to gather information to amke your own decision. In the end, only you can decide what is 'right' for you. __________________ "Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson

01-22-2002, 07:36 PM	#131
fable Quintesson Join Date: March 17, 2001 Location: Where I am. Posts: 1,089	Drake, Cerek's on course. As I mentioned before, "pagan" is a very broad term, and can define a host of religions (which I won't even begin to list). Wicca is one of 'em. Like any subclass of a larger class, it includes characteristics of the larger class, plus characteristics that are entirely its own. So as Cerek pointed out, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and more are all Christians. Wiccans, non-Wiccan witches, so-called "magical societies," revivalist groups worshipping a particular nationalist pantheon (Norse, British, Italian and Teutonic groups for a fact exist), etc, are all pagans. But they aren't identical to one another, by any means. You wouldn't expect a Southern Baptist to utilize the same rituals as a Roman Catholic, would you? [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

01-23-2002, 07:28 PM	#137
Tarox Manshoon Join Date: November 2, 2001 Location: Nottingham, UK Posts: 171	Ok I'm going to be totally British here All this Wicca basket stuff and Pagan what not Is it a coincidence you all seem to be from the USA I truly believe the USA is really messed up in the head when it comes to wierd religions and ritual cults and other mumbo jumbo Its always the sort of thing people say about then say its from the US and that kinda explains it all as if its an excuse for wierd shit Ok im not saying we dont have a few people like that in the rest of the civilised world but the US always seems to be teeming with all this crap. Anytime there is a new religion or cult or some sorta wierdo following it comes from over there.... Dunno good luck to you all im not saying anything against you as such just something i noticed __________________ <IMG SRC=\"http://tarox.homestead.com/files/TaroxE.jpg\">

01-23-2002, 07:38 PM	#138
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Tarox: Ok I'm going to be totally British here All this Wicca basket stuff and Pagan what not Is it a coincidence you all seem to be from the USA I truly believe the USA is really messed up in the head when it comes to wierd religions and ritual cults and other mumbo jumbo Its always the sort of thing people say about then say its from the US and that kinda explains it all as if its an excuse for wierd shit Ok im not saying we dont have a few people like that in the rest of the civilised world but the US always seems to be teeming with all this crap. Anytime there is a new religion or cult or some sorta wierdo following it comes from over there.... Dunno good luck to you all im not saying anything against you as such just something i noticed Actually Tarox, until the board went down there as many English Wiccans as American here. As to your charge, I guess there are more "wierdos" in the USA than in Britain. But then again there are MORE PEOPLE aren't there? Roughly four times as many. So there are probaly more intelligent people, more artists, more inventors, more boring people, and more closed minded bigots who slag off other nations too. Here's to world peace. Let's let it start on the internet..... [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Yorick ] __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

01-23-2002, 07:45 PM	#139
Garnet FalconDance Mephistopheles Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: deep within the sylvan splendor.... Age: 60 Posts: 1,443	Tarox I choose not to take personal issue with your words, but I question your motivation for the comments. __________________ "Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson

01-23-2002, 07:50 PM	#140
fable Quintesson Join Date: March 17, 2001 Location: Where I am. Posts: 1,089	quote: Originally posted by Tarox: Ok I'm going to be totally British here All this Wicca basket stuff and Pagan what not Is it a coincidence you all seem to be from the USA I truly believe the USA is really messed up in the head when it comes to wierd religions and ritual cults and other mumbo jumbo I'm less inclined to look at a person's beliefs by the religious lapel pin they wear, than by the actions of that individual, and by the depth of view they bring to those beliefs. Obviously, you can't tell anything about my actions--except that I waste an inordinate amount of time up here. By as for the weirdness and mumbo jumboness of my views, I've worshipped according to my beliefs, which I thought about and felt about very strongly, for more than twenty years. I'm not a faddist. I'm not a person who jumps swiftly from one strange thing into another. I'd like to think I'm a person of considerable faith whose religion lies outside the modern mainstream--and that's all. I'm curious what you know about witches, that enables you to judge with precision and insight its "cult" nature. What books have you read? How many witches of honest credentials have you spoken with? I look forward to your response. [img]smile.gif[/img]

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