Guns.

[Donut]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

Originally posted by Donut:

Umm Donut...if you comit murder...you ARE dy definition a murderer, wether you are family or not. Second, where did you get the statistic that most "Firearm" murders are caused by family members? I think if you check your figures that there may be a high incidence of family killing family but that the methods of murder are not usually firearms, though they too have been used for this act.

They are not criminals before they commit the crime. And you are misquoting me - I never used the word 'firearm'.

Did I misquote you? We ARE discussing firearms here....or rather were. I have given it up since Im out of energy and interest [img]smile.gif[/img] the advantage you youngsters have over us old fogeys...

Yes - you DID misquote me. I was replying to a post about murders in general NOT about murders by firearm.

And that's the second time you have made the mistake of thinking that I am a young person. I am older than you are and therefore by your own admission:

I need show no respect for your opinion.
I am more experienced in life than you are and therefore I am always right and you are always wrong.

[ 05-23-2002, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by AzureWolf: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: the advantage you youngsters have over us old fogeys...

ROFL I couldnt help but laugh at this, Magik you are not the only older one on the board contrary to what you may think, try checking up on Donuts age [/QUOTE]It's rude to discuss a Donut's age in public!

[Donut]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Well since everyone is throwing statistics around here, I went out and found a few of my own. From www.geottmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010301.html In the International Violent Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland It was found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations. 26% of English citizens (1 in 4) have been victimized by violent crime. Care to guess who was first?... No... It wasn't the US... It was Australia at 30%. WorldDailyNet (whoever they are) reported in March 2000 "that since Australia's widespread gun ban, violent crime had increased in the country. WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story: - Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent. - Assault are up 8.6 percent. - Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent. - In the Australian State of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent." .

It is difficult to discuss your statistics on violent crime without knowing what they class as violent. The majority of street robberies these days in Britain involves stealing mobile phones from schoolchildren.

What I will agree with you on is that you are more likely to be a victim of crime in England than in the USA but I haven't heard anyone disputing this. If you live where I live in London it is even more dangerous. If you live in Central London (like Epona) you are virtually a crime statistic waiting to happen. The preponderence of guns just makes it more likely that during a crime someone will get killed.

Here is a link to a site which disputes your statistics on the effect of hand gun control in Australia.

I guess you can use statistics to prove anything.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Eh, I am not an American nor a European, but over where I live, illegal possession of firearms is punishable by death. Only policemen, soldiers, security guards, and sport shooters( who also double as crow shooters) are allowed to have them by license.

I guess my environment is different, but I would never vote for legal possession of firearms by citizens. Death by firearm is virtually non-existent here, maybe 2-4 cases a year, out of a population of 4 million.

I would rather face a thug with a knife, than a thug with a gun.

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Originally posted by Donut: I am older than you are and therefore by your own admission: I need show no respect for your opinion. I am more experienced in life than you are and therefore I am always right and you are always wrong.

Who is misquoting now?

My comment on children having no opinions of interest to me about child rearing has nothing to do with this. AND I DID specify CHILDREN and people who have never been parents. Since there is noone on the planet that can consider me a "Child" chronologicly your comment is false from the start. I also never said ANYTHING about RESPECT with my comment. AND lastly THIS thread is about firearms more commonly called Guns So...Pardon me if I assume you are being on topic in your posts and not completely out in left field.

And why do I keep mistaking you for a child? I think Ill refrain from commenting on that since it wouldnt serve any useful purpose.

How can you be so hypocritical in your comments? You sit there and misquote me left and right then bash me for assumeing you are on topic? Man I really do not understand you.

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Eh, I am not an American nor a European, but over where I live, illegal possession of firearms is punishable by death. Only policemen, soldiers, security guards, and sport shooters( who also double as crow shooters) are allowed to have them by license. I guess my environment is different, but I would never vote for legal possession of firearms by citizens. Death by firearm is virtually non-existent here, maybe 2-4 cases a year, out of a population of 4 million. I would rather face a thug with a knife, than a thug with a gun.

Firearm deaths are non-existant but Im pretty much sure that most in the west would not enjoy living under a system where you can be jailed for spitting your gum out on the pavement. Singapore is a very safe, clean and wonderful city, but the residents are paying a pretty hefty fee in the lack of freedoms and government oversight of their lives not to mention the cameras that seem ubiquitous. There was a really interesting documentary on the Learning channel awhile ago about the place. I think it was when that american kid was sentenced to being caned.

[Donut]

Slightly defensive reply there Magik. I seem to have hit a nerve.

You should not assume my comments were based purely on the child rearing thread. There have been a succession of diatribes from you in which you speak of your disrespect for the opinion of young people. I was merely taking your mistaken viewpoint to it's logical nonsensical extreme.

The debate about firearms and deaths caused by them cannot be disentangled from the debate about murder of any form. The two go together.

As for your thinly disguised insult about me being a child I shall treat it with the same disrespect that I treat all of your trollish tripe.

PS. Please don't waste your time PM'ing me an apology this time.

[ 05-23-2002, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Well since everyone is throwing statistics around here, I went out and found a few of my own. From www.geottmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010301.html In the International Violent Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland It was found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations. 26% of English citizens (1 in 4) have been victimized by violent crime. Care to guess who was first?... No... It wasn't the US... It was Australia at 30%. WorldDailyNet (whoever they are) reported in March 2000 "that since Australia's widespread gun ban, violent crime had increased in the country. WND reported that, although lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story: - Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent. - Assault are up 8.6 percent. - Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent. - In the Australian State of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent." .

It is difficult to discuss your statistics on violent crime without knowing what they class as violent. The majority of street robberies these days in Britain involves stealing mobile phones from schoolchildren.

What I will agree with you on is that you are more likely to be a victim of crime in England than in the USA but I haven't heard anyone disputing this. If you live where I live in London it is even more dangerous. If you live in Central London (like Epona) you are virtually a crime statistic waiting to happen. The preponderence of guns just makes it more likely that during a crime someone will get killed.

Here is a link to a site which disputes your statistics on the effect of hand gun control in Australia.

I guess you can use statistics to prove anything. [/QUOTE]Statistics from IANSA are not even worth looking at...geez, lets find the biggest gun haters and ask them to be fair...yeah right.

At least Sir T. didn't go right to the NRA and get his statistics.....

Originally posted by Donut: Slightly defensive reply there Magik. I seem to have hit a nerve. You should not assume my comments were based purely on the child rearing thread. There have been a succession of diatribes from you in which you speak of your disrespect for the opinion young people. I was merely taking your mistaken viewpoint to it's logical nonsensical extreme. The debate about firearms and deaths caused by them cannot be disentangled from the debate about murder of any form. The two go together. As for your thinly disguised insult about me being a child I shall treat it with the same disrespect that I treat all of your trollish tripe. PS. Please don't waste your time PM'ing me an apology this time.

No you didnt hit a nerve, you pissed me off, a completely different thing all together I assure you. Rather than debate an issue in a straight up manner you seem to seek to confuse and obfuscate, you pissed me off. It take a lot to get me angry, especially in a silly forum thread, however YOU seem to delight in debasing half of the serious discussions I have started. Then have the gall to turn around and accuse me of comitting the offense that you your self seem to delight in useing. In person It wouldn't have been a thinly veiled anything.

As for apologizing, I apologize when I have done something I discover was wrong, this time Im in the right, that is exactly why I believe you a child. You NEVER admit you are wrong, or have done wrong. I do admit that I do a disservice to children when I act like I always assume that it is only the children that are like this, but in actuality it is only because I expect better from so called adults.

Edit: Please Donut, in the future, feel free to ignore my trollish tripe. Id rather not have you derailing the discussions of people who want to address the issue that is being discussed.

[ 05-23-2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Epona]

Originally posted by Donut: If you live in Central London (like Epona) you are virtually a crime statistic waiting to happen.

[img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] I'm not a statistic [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] I'm a real person with thoughts and feelings - Oh Donut, how could you? [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img]