sneak attack vs overwhelming critical?

[Mozenwrathe]

someone out there must have the answers to this:

1) can sneak attack be combined with critical damage?
2) what is the highest one can achieve with overwhelming critical?
3) is there higher than 800 HP worth of damage in a singular strike?
4) what is the theoretical "glass ceiling" a person can reach in a single strike?

and yes, this idea was taken directly from the Baldur's Gate II thread about Backstabs (in which the maximum discovered thus far was clearing 600 HP in a single backstab strike)

[Marathon]

I don't know about sneak attack, but here is a post from the character build search engine that the poster claims has the highest single hit damage total possibility in NWN. It's a Paladin / WM with Great Smiting maxed out...

I did a big attack bonus character, and now I give you.... the most one hit melee damage possible in neverwinter nights.
paladin 32/weapon master 7

strength 8
dexterity 14
constitution 8
intelligence 13
wisdom 11
charisma 18

skills:
intimidate and whatever else seems appropriate.

all stat points in charisma untill charisma reaches 26, then strength.


levels :
1-15 : paladin
15-22 : weapon master
22-40 paladin

feats:
exotic weapon prof.
weapon focus : scythe
dodge
expertise
mobility
spring attack
whirlwind attack
extra smiting
improved crit : scythe
great smiting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Attack bonus by the end : +35/+30/+25/+20

now, how he does so much damage:
ki damage with smite evil, on his highest attack per round, for 3 rounds straight. that's a 1 in 5 chance per swing that he will crit. when he crits, his smite gets multiplied as well. so:
2-8 +4 (17-20/ x5.)
so now the math begins:
8 (max damage for the die roll)+4=12
12 x 5 = 60
32 paladin levels, times 10 from great smiting is 320
320 x 5 = 1600
1600 + 60 = 1660
1660 guaranteed damage in one hit, with a really good percentage of landing that hit. (1 in 5, 3 times. I'm not good at math but I like those odds.)
kinda makes me wish I had one free feat for divine might.

[Legolas]

Originally posted by Mozenwrathe: someone out there must have the answers to this: 1) can sneak attack be combined with critical damage? 2) what is the highest one can achieve with overwhelming critical? 3) is there higher than 800 HP worth of damage in a singular strike? 4) what is the theoretical "glass ceiling" a person can reach in a single strike?

1) It can be, but the sneak attack damage won't be multiplied.
2) That depends on the weapon and class, but would be 6 x (multiplier - 1) points of damage more than without the feat.
3) Yes there is.
4) Hard to say as NWN's features allow for much more variety than you'll find in the BG series. One example is this one over at the bioware site, but even that build can be surpassed or improved upon. It does not, for example, factor in strength and charisma boosts and weapon properties. The greater smiting feat does go a long way in terms of damage; it does lose some of its potential when you realise you have to a) hit b) a creature of the right alignment c) with a critical d) which it can't be immune to, and e) you only get a few shots at it.

EDIT: Let me just add to that, under the right conditions, you can do more damage with spells than you ever could with a weapon. For example, you can give an opponent 50.000 hitpoints. Cast Harm/Heal depending on race, and there you go. Then there's the death magic which doesn't technically deal damage, but is the equivalent of taking all of a creature's hitpoints for practical outcome. Managing overkill is easier with weapons though.

[ 06-14-2006, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[robertthebard]

Ok, he said minimum dmg in that, but it seems to me he's counting on max dmg, and max dmg on all the rolls. I don't know if anybody has noticed this or not, but crit dmg isn't rolled once and multiplied, it's rolled every time, ie; if it's *6, then it's 6 rolls of whichever die is appropriate, the same holds true for the weapon dmg, etc.

[Legolas]

True, but for calculating a theoretical maximum you assume all the rolls are optimal.

[Mozenwrathe]

Okay, second set of questions:

1) under regular conditions, what are the three most likely weapons to inflict maximum potential damage without the benefits of sneak attack?

2) underneath those same conditions, would a character using sneak attack do better amounts of damage using weapons most suited to sneak attack (such as daggers, clubs, and rapiers)?

3) is it thesible to create a character using sneak attack that counts on critical hits for maximum potential? (exampli gratias: a blackguard version of the Damage Adept who would have sneak attack potential but uses mainly strength-based damage)

4) without magical items boosting up any of the skills, is it wiser (for creating a combat-based character) to go with sneak attack or critical hits for your damage type? or does that depend on yourprefered style of combat?

5) can you use sneak attack and critical hits with long range weapons at the same time easier than with melee weapons?

[ 06-16-2006, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[Legolas]

1) Purely looking at highest potential damage, you'd use the Scythe (32) or Greataxe (36), both Large weapons, or as a higher level monk, none at all (40).
Looking at what weapons are most likely to deal their maximum damage, you'd have the Scimitar, Rapier and Kukri (all equally likely). Looking at what weapons do most damage per round, you get additional factors like being able to dual-wield or no, and effects on attack bonus (particularly in the case of the monk). Also you face the trade-off of attacks for protection and/or accuracy and the picture grows more complicated once again.

2) Sneak attack damage doesn't depend on the weapon used. They are "thieves' weapons" only because thieves typically prefer dexterity over strength, and those weapons can, with the right feat, take partial benefit from that.

3) Yes, for example, a rogue with the devestating critical feat. Whether it's a good idea is a different matter entirely.

4) Critical hits are less reliable, but usually do more damage. You don't get sneak attack benefits if the enemy is striking back at you, so they aren't as user friendly. Also, all creatures immune to critical hits are immune to sneak attacks as well, but the reverse isn't true. So, it depends on your style.
In most cases people prefer critical hits for the simple reason that even a CON 8 sorcerer getting 3 hp/level has an edge over the rogue with its damage increase of 1d6 every 2 levels*. Me, I prefer sneak attacks because I'm just that kind of person.
*or so it is reasoned. Not entirely true of course.

5) No, missile weapons have poorer stats when it comes to dealing damage than the best melee weapons do. Also, the sneak attack is no easier if the enemy is coming straight for you, and no harder if he isn't.

[robertthebard]

Another factor on 5 is distance, ranged weapons can be used effectively for sneak attacks, but you can't be clear across even my 15 inch screen for them to work. Most of the way, maybe, but...I did a rogue/fighter/wm, in daggers, in Undermountain. Sneaky dev crits are awesome. I suspect that a sneaky dev crit means that the victim never saw what hit them...

[Mozenwrathe]

Originally posted by robertthebard: Another factor on 5 is distance, ranged weapons can be used effectively for sneak attacks, but you can't be clear across even my 15 inch screen for them to work. Most of the way, maybe, but...I did a rogue/fighter/wm, in daggers, in Undermountain. Sneaky dev crits are awesome. I suspect that a sneaky dev crit means that the victim never saw what hit them...

Literally.
*blinks*

Now, after reading through on the "backstab" thread within the Baldur's Gate II forums, I saw a picture that would make even the Damage Adept jealous - total potential backstab on a single turn on regular difficulty: 800+ HP in a single strike. (Yes, the creature hit was VERY dead after that.) Now, my next question would be is that kind of strike possible within NeverWinter Nights using similar tactics? (shapechanging scroll to a golem, sneak attack, optimal strike bonuses including critical hit because sneak attacks in NeverWinter Nights do not work the same as backstab does inisdie of Baldur's Gate II.)

[robertthebard]

Ok, from reading in the BG2 manual, my memory has been refreshed. In the Infinity Engine games, so far as I can tell, excepting maybe Icewind Dale 2, due to the rules changes, the backstab was either double, triple or quadruple damage. I believe this was handled by rolling the damage, and then multiplying the results by the correct modifier. So, assuming a natural 20, which was the only crit available, the initial damage roll would be doubled, and if that was a high level thief, then that damage roll would be quadrupled. Note that I believe that is how it was handed in AD&D, not the way it's handled now, by NWN's. In the BG series, there were weapons that were "backstab specific". In other words, you could only get backstabs with those weapons. This isn't the case with sneak attacks, and the damage is computed way differently. You gain 1d6 every so many lvls, odd lvls I believe. Because of this, and the fact that each damage roll is rolled independently, instead of multiplied outright, it has changed the amount of damage possible, and if the crit result isn't figured in, then it makes a big difference to how much damage can be dealt. I hope this clears this up, as I think I have confused myself.