Pentagon angry that Iraq "not playing by rules"

[Memnoch]

Pentagon officials have complained bitterly about what they call "deadly deceptions" by Iraqi troops pretending to surrender to United States forces and then firing on the Americans.

"They are sending forces out carrying white surrender flags or dressing them as liberated civilians to draw coalition forces into ambushes," Victoria Clarke, spokeswoman for Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, said.

"These actions are among the most serious violations of the laws of war."

Major General Stanley McChrystal, vice-director of operations on the Pentagon's Joint Staff, said US forces would continue to accept Iraqi surrenders.

In two episodes on Sunday near Nasiriyah, Iraqi forces deceived Americans into believing they were surrendering or otherwise welcoming them, US officials said.

They said one unit indicated it was giving up but, as Marines approached, the Iraqis opened fire, killing nine Americans. US military sources said about 40 were wounded.

"Some liken these acts to terrorism," Clarke said. "Such acts involve the enemy wilfully violating the laws of war, while simultaneously taking advantage of the coalition forces' compliance with that law."

The tactic also complicates the US forces' dealings with civilians. It wants to tell Iraqis its troops are liberators, not conquerors.

Soldiers have even been issued with notes on how to talk to Iraqi civilians. But US hopes the invading troops would be welcomed by locals have not materialised.

"We're all a little bit leery on who we can trust now," said a US sergeant, one of a team of scouts for the 2-70 battalion who check out terrain in advance of the main elements.

From the Associated Press

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Unfortunately, the only rule in today's war environment is that there are no rules. That's what terrorism is all about, and I expect more to come - the Iraqis aren't going to play by rules which will ensure they'll lose. This could be like the VietCong all over again.

[Hayashi]

While a despicable act, I am not surprised by the behaviour, seeing that the regime is known for its ruthlessness. I can only think of Stalin who was equally cruel to his own people.

But surely the US and UK should have seen this coming? After all, it *is* an invasion of Iraq no matter how justified/unjustified (depends on one's point of view) it is. Did the partisans in occupied Europe play by the rules in WW2? I don't think so. We can expect such things to continue.

As a general in the Armchair Corps ( ) what the Coalition Forces should do is to tighten up their ROE. Expect that all such surrenders are a ruse, and prepare accordingly. Make the onus of proving that the surrender is genuine on the Iraqis. Make it clear to them that should the surrender be a ruse, no mercy will be shown.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Hayashi: But surely the US and UK should have seen this coming? After all, it *is* an invasion of Iraq no matter how justified/unjustified (depends on one's point of view) it is. Did the partisans in occupied Europe play by the rules in WW2? I don't think so. We can expect such things to continue.

Indeed... I think that's probably the miscalculation made by many people; the Iraqi population isn't unanimous in their support of the idea that the US and the UK should "liberate" them with a war... And putting that aside, the "invaders" will most likely have the media bias against them in Iraq just the same. Most of them probably never heard a single positive word about the US and the UK in the press, or at least not in the last few months; I wouldn't expect them to trust the US and UK soldiers right away either.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I have to admit this caused me to shake my head in disbelief.

"Iraqi soldiers aren't playing by the rules"

Oh my......they truly are evil incarnate. Geez...this is WAR - There are NO RULES!!!!

The Iraqi "rules violations" go beyond the fake surrenders. They are also reportedly hiding in (and attacking from) mosques and hospitals. This DOES put the Coalition Forces at a serious disadvantage since they ARE trying to avoid civilian casualties. Still...like Memnoch said...what did the Coalition Forces expect them to do?

The really ironic part of this statement is that I once heard (in a school history lesson) that the same charge was made against the American Forces.....back in the late 1700's. British troops apparantly made the same claim against the Patriot forces...because the Americans would not stand in well-regimented lines during battle. Instead, the cowardly Americans would kneel or lie down..or even hide behind trees and other cover while shooting at British troops that were standing shoulder-to-shoulder out in the open.....in accordance to proper combat etiquette.

The charge struck me as absurd then and now both. There is no "etiquette" in war. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img]

[skywalker]

They believe they are fighting an invading force and also believe they are protecting their country from "evil". They also appear to have little to work with against a "superior" force. Nothing done in this war should be surprising.

Mark

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I have to admit this caused me to shake my head in disbelief. "Iraqi soldiers aren't playing by the rules" Oh my......they truly are evil incarnate. Geez...this is WAR - There are NO RULES!!!! The Iraqi "rules violations" go beyond the fake surrenders. They are also reportedly hiding in (and attacking from) mosques and hospitals. This DOES put the Coalition Forces at a serious disadvantage since they ARE trying to avoid civilian casualties. Still...like Memnoch said...what did the Coalition Forces expect them to do? The really ironic part of this statement is that I once heard (in a school history lesson) that the same charge was made against the American Forces.....back in the late 1700's. British troops apparantly made the same claim against the Patriot forces...because the Americans would not stand in well-regimented lines during battle. Instead, the cowardly Americans would kneel or lie down..or even hide behind trees and other cover while shooting at British troops that were standing shoulder-to-shoulder out in the open.....in accordance to proper combat etiquette. The charge struck me as absurd then and now both. There is no "etiquette" in war. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img]

cerek, i couldnt agree more. you are 100% correct. although there are certain "rules" in war (like the geneva convention) it is also true that you would have to be VERY stupid to fight against an overwhelmingly superior force straight on or "fair". that is what the americans did during the revolution war, that is what the argentines did against the spaniards in our revolution, that is what the afghanis (freedom fighters, back then) did against the russians, and that is what the irakies are doing right now.

i mean, what do they want them to do??? line up in an orderly fashion with their ak47's against the tanks and airstrikes and be slaughtered???

what would you do...?

[ 03-26-2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

[Ronn_Bman]

You have a point, but herding Shiite women and children into the streets during combat or to prevent combat, or placing them within the ranks of military units are things that should be unacceptable for all. Working out of hospitals or schools or mosques or parking military vehicles near these sites should also be deplored because of the willingness to risk the innocent.

If it were me, I might not abide by all the rules if faced with an overwhelming force, but I wouldn't use human shield's. I wouldn't put woman and children between me and the enemy in an effort to buy time or even save myself. I think this, in and of itself, is proof that the Iraqi army isn't fighting to save it's people.

[ 03-26-2003, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: You have a point, but herding Shiite women and children into the streets during combat or to prevent combat, or placing them within the ranks of military units are things that should be unacceptable for all. Working out of hospitals or schools or mosques or parking military vehicles near these sites should also be deplored because of the willingness to risk the innocent. If it were me, I might not abide by all the rules if faced with an overwhelming force, but I wouldn't use human shield's. I wouldn't put woman and children between me and the enemy in an effort to buy time or even save myself. I think this, in and of itself, is proof that the Iraqi army isn't fighting to save it's people.

I agree with everything you said, Ronn, but I'm realistic enough to realise that for a desperate regime (one that pays money to families of suicide bombers and other terrorists) there is no such thing as "fair play" or "morality". They will do whatever they have to do to win, or defend their country, because they believe that what they are doing is right. That's the bottom line.

Like Cerek said, the British complained about the same thing during the American Revolution - they complained that the Americans targetting their officers for snipe attacks was "just not cricket" (ie not fair). But it's always what's been done by a ragtag army facing an overwhelming force. This shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone - if the Pentagon is surprised at this they must be incredibly naive.

The bottom line is: it's war. Trust no one.

[Timber Loftis]

The Geneva Conventions on the rules of war serve a purpose. Not following them is expected of a regime hopelessly outclassed on the battlefield. But, not following them will inevitably result in war crime charges down the road.

[John D Harris]

Rules in WAR! Rules in a WAR is about the most Assinine thing I've ever heard of. That DOES NOT mean: you should not do things to limit Civilain casulaties. It DOES mean: This is war and people are killing and being killed if you don't want to be looking at the wrong side of the grass you had bettter CHUNK the rules BS. And prepare your selves to take the lives of the enemy and destroy the lives of their loved ones, Because they sure as "Hale" are going to try to do it to you and your loved ones.
I've always said that any WAR that is fought must be done with such Brutality and ruthlessness that all people think twice about going to war.