Clerics vs. Wizards

[Xen]

One more reason for me to start playing IWD....again


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EDIT:I was reffering to Dundee


[ 06-10-2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

[Rataxes]

Speaking of nothing, I see that the Spell Reference still lists Implosion as dealing 10d10 blunt damage, when it in fact also deals 10d10 fire damage.

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On topic, Clerics might not be better than Mages (far from it actually), but they're still very useful. I'd personally never make a party that didn't contain a Cleric. Remove Fear, Silence (quite a few mages don't have Vocalize), Holy Smite, Animate Dead, Prot from Evil, Death Ward (Did you know it protects from all kinds of permanent death? extremely useful in Party NR games on Insane), Chaotic Commands, Harm, Greater Restoration. All great spells that no party would want to be without.

I also think the argument that Clerics are rendered redundant by items such as Hindos Doom and Ring of Free Action, isn't true. First of all, what's a man without a Cleric to do if he needs Greater Restoration at some point before he faces Abizigal, that's quite a portion of the game to go without it

Secondly, it's like saying that Mages aren't any good because of items such as Vhailor's Helm, Oils of Speed, Wands of Spell Striking, Necklace of Missiles, Glasses of Identification, Ring of Gaxx or Improved Cloak of Protection - There are substitutes for many of the more popular Mage spells as well, that doesn't make them redundant.

The comparison isn't 100% accurate, I know, but having a Cleric is still much preferable to relying on some item that you'll acquire just before the end of the game.

[ 06-10-2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

I'm impressed. The only nitpick I have with that Mod is that they gave all the Rogues the ability to max out Two-Weapon Style. It kinda crimps the reasons why people choose to play the Swashbuckler and the Blade. Minor nitpick though, and overall very well thought out.

Do they plan to make it WeiDU compliant?

Anyway... to compare their songs to the IWD+HOW Bard's songs, here you go.

Background descriptions omitted for brevity. Note that the Bard can CHOOSE what song he wants to play. All songs affect the party except one which affects the enemy.

The Ballad of Three Heroes: Gained at the start, -1 to THACO, saving throws and +1 damage.

The Tale of Curran Strongheart: Gained at level 3, Immunity to Fear, removes any current fear effects.

Tymora's Melody: Gained at level 5, +1 Luck, -3 saving throws, +10% to Lore and Thieving Skills.

The Song of Kaudies: Gained at level 7, 50% chance to ignore sound-based attacks like Silence, Command, Shout, Great Shout, etc... ...

Applies more to IWD+HOW, where sound-based attacks are actually deadly.

The Siren's Yearning: Gained at level 9, enemies must save vs spell or be enthralled, unable to take action for 1 turn or they take damage.

EVIL song. Does not work against Undead for obvious reasons.

War Chant of Sith: Gained at level 11, start kissing the Bard's toes, -2 AC, +10% slashing/crushing/piercing/missile resistance, regenerate 2HP per round.

IWD+HOW does not have a casting level limit of 20, and Bards can reach level 30 under the HOW level cap. At that level, they can cast...

6 level 1-4 spells
5 level 5-7 spells
1 level 8 spell

[Alson]

Originally posted by Rataxes: Speaking of nothing, I see that the Spell Reference still lists Implosion as dealing 10d10 blunt damage, when it in fact also deals 10d10 fire damage.

Tsk, tsk... shame on you, Rataxes! Such lack of confidence in the Spells Reference crew! [img]tongue.gif[/img] The Spells Reference uses red fonts when referring to an error in the spell's description. You may open BG2 and see that Implosion is listed as dealing 2d10 blunt damage (on top of the 10d10 fire damage, of course)... or you may trust us. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

On topic, Clerics might not be better than Mages (far from it actually), but they're still very useful. I'd personally never make a party that didn't contain a Cleric.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I hardly, if ever, play with a priest in the party... and even then, it's usually a Druid.

Remove Fear, Silence (quite a few mages don't have Vocalize), Holy Smite, Animate Dead, Prot from Evil, Death Ward (Did you know it protects from all kinds of permanent death? extremely useful in Party NR games on Insane), Chaotic Commands, Harm, Greater Restoration. All great spells that no party would want to be without.

Remove Fear, Silence, Animate Dead, Pro-Evil - all these have an Arcane variant, which is usually just as good.

Holy Smite & Harm are offensive spells... which isn't exactly where the Cleric outdoes the Mage, so I won't even bother with mentioning their Arcane replacers.

Chaotic Commands is usually redundant with arctic saves.

Greater Restoration & Death Ward are both wonderful, and irreplaceable by an Arcane spell, I'll grant you that.

I also think the argument that Clerics are rendered redundant by items such as Hindos Doom and Ring of Free Action, isn't true. First of all, what's a man without a Cleric to do if he needs Greater Restoration at some point before he faces Abizigal, that's quite a portion of the game to go without it

?! Hindo's Doom isn't looted from Abazigal. The not upgraded version has Lesser Restoration, which is just as good when it comes to level drain. Temples abound, too.

Secondly, it's like saying that Mages aren't any good because of items such as Vhailor's Helm, Oils of Speed, Wands of Spell Striking, Necklace of Missiles, Glasses of Identification, Ring of Gaxx or Improved Cloak of Protection - There are substitutes for many of the more popular Mage spells as well, that doesn't make them redundant.

None of these items, however, can do what a Mage is really good for - Insane Damage Dealing. If I would want a supporting character, I would probably take the Cleric over the Mage. But then again, I would probably take the Skald over the Cleric. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 06-10-2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Omicron]

In the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, Blades get automatic 3 points into their two weapon fighting style, so theres a great bonus, considering rogues get significantly less proficiency points that fighter types. Swashbucklers get some other bonus to hits to compensate for the non autmoatic 3 points.

Personally I find single classed rogues a bit weak, but bards are just fine.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Do they plan to make it WeiDU compliant?

I'm quite sure it's in WeiDU format already.

Anyway... to compare their songs to the IWD+HOW Bard's songs, here you go. ... *snip, snip* IWD+HOW does not have a casting level limit of 20, and Bards can reach level 30 under the HOW level cap. At that level, they can cast... 6 level 1-4 spells 5 level 5-7 spells 1 level 8 spell

Wow... Bards are actually... powerful? Doesn't scan!

What's a "sound attack", by the way?

[Russ]

I don't get the distinction...it's so context-based... now, I haven't gotten to ToB, and frankly, for purpose of discussing SoA, don't care... but Clerics can do some things that really eat Mages...

1. Staying power. In a long-drawn-out slog, the Cleric, while starting with a lower power level, holds his own longer... how many spell slots is the wizard burning for the equivalent of the heavy-duty armor and weaponry the Cleric's toting? If you get into multiclasses like the Cleric/Ranger, where the Druid spells are available right next to the Cleric's, it starts getting really ugly.
2. Inflict mass damage *in the middle of a crowd.* Granted, if you're only talking about soloing and about mustering pure firepower, okay. But that's cheese -- the cleric's whole purpose in life revolves around a community, it's like saying "thieves aren't any good because they don't really fight well toe-to-toe..." Holy or Unholy Smite works just great in the middle of a crowd... try that with a fireball.
3. Turning/Controlling undead. Evil priests can get really scary that way.

Maybe it's just a difference in playing style... but I've found the clerics to be consistently rating in my mvp category, with Aerie's Cleric abilities being absolutely as valuable as her Mage spells... *depending on the context.*

[Rataxes]

Tsk, tsk... shame on you, Rataxes! Such lack of confidence in the Spells Reference crew! The Spells Reference uses red fonts when referring to an error in the spell's description. You may open BG2 and see that Implosion is listed as dealing 2d10 blunt damage (on top of the 10d10 fire damage, of course)... or you may trust us.

Well, it wouldn't have been the first time I found flaws in the guide, would it? Anyway, I figured that might've been the case, I did notice that it was written in red. Still,

"One of the rare Divine damage spells and sort of an improved Bigby's Clenched Fist. Only affects one target but Holds without a save, does good Blunt damage (few creatures are immune to that) and bypasses magic resistance! Insane damage dealing is best left to mages, but if you need your cleric to do it this will serve you fine.

Damage: 10D10"

isn't it pretty easy to interpret this as Implosion dealing 10d10 Blunt damage, and that's it? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Remove Fear, Silence, Animate Dead, Pro-Evil - all these have an Arcane variant, which is usually just as good.

Remove Fear - Ok, Mages will have to sacrifice more of their spell arsenal than Priests if they want to be able to provide sufficient protection from Fear for the entire party, but this one is pretty close.
Silence - The only Arcane version that is somewhat equal in power is Power Word, Silence. Who in their right mind would sacrifice a lvl 6 slot on silencing a mage though? There probably wont even be all that many spellcasters vulnerable to silence left by the time your Mage can cast lvl 6 spells Clerics get their version much earlier and they also don't have to sacrifice as much to get it, there aren't many other hot spell choices on that level.
Animate Dead - So the versions are identical, but for Mages, getting one of these means getting one less Lower MR, Breach or Spell Immunity. Clerics have to give up a Holy Smite The comparative sacrifice is even smaller since Clerics will have about twice as many Lvl 3 slots as Mages will have lvl 5 slots.
Prot from Evil - No way is Protection from Evil anywhere near as good Prot from Evil 10'Radius, not for parties anyway

Holy Smite & Harm are offensive spells... which isn't exactly where the Cleric outdoes the Mage, so I won't even bother with mentioning their Arcane replacers

Holy Smite and Harm are as useful and powerful as any Arcane spells (maybe not quite ). ADHW does about 80% more damage than HS, but HS makes up for it by being a lvl 3 spell (compared to lvl 8), and the Clerics ability to memorize more than twice as many HS as the Mage can memorize ADWH. The potential power of Harm is greater than that of any Arcane spell, even though it may have very specific uses.

Chaotic Commands is usually redundant with arctic saves.

And how do you reach arctic saves in the early/mid-game? 2-3 Potions of Invulnerability could be needed per character to attain complete immunity (how many such potions are even available?) , and even then it'd only last for 5 turns, making it very battle-specific, and even then it doesn't protect you from those saveless disabling spells.
Ok sure, low saves go a long way to compensate for the lack of CC, but there's no beating the original

?! Hindo's Doom isn't looted from Abazigal. The not upgraded version has Lesser Restoration, which is just as good when it comes to level drain. Temples abound, too.

Lesser Restoration is vastly inferior to it's greater brother, the only thing it's good for is restoring lost levels. Greater Restoration can turn a battle from certain defeat to victory in an instant. To get even a half-decent substitute for GR without a Cleric (once per day still isn't that hot), you definitely need to go to Abizigals lair.

None of these items, however, can do what a Mage is really good for - Insane Damage Dealing. If I would want a supporting character, I would probably take the Cleric over the Mage. But then again, I would probably take the Skald over the Cleric

Guess that's where the difference lies, I rarely use mages to deal damage. I find them far more useful as supporting characters - disabling enemies with Slow and Hold Monster, clearing the way for my fighters with Breach, boosting their offensive capabilities with Haste/Imp Haste, boosting their defensive capabilities with PfME, Imp Invisibility and Prot from Fire, tanking with PfMW, Blur, Mirror Image, Stoneskin and SI. Using them to deal damage is really a second priority.

OK first of all how does a Druid COme in here... i mean how is druid even related to a cleric or Wizard?? righ...any way one of the few reason i belive that clerics are better is because they can eqip alot of the armors and stuff... plus they have a wide variety of magic spells. Such as healing necromancy and...etc... they can do and okay job in close combat melee combats and they have good defence so i thinkthat overall clerics would make the better choice...

[Assassin]

The potential power of Harm is greater than that of any Arcane spell, even though it may have very specific uses.

Except it only affects one target, who you have to hit first. And, if the target doesn't have PfMW up anyways, he's already dead from my frontline fighters, whom are inevitably Improved Hasted.

[ 06-10-2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]