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Old 05-01-2001, 10:09 AM   #41
RudeDawg
20th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: April 9, 2001
Location: Dallas, Tx, USA
Age: 54
Posts: 2,830
Quote:
Originally posted by LadyRae:

Goodbye all. Be well. I'm thinking Ziroc will grant my wish and leave my profile (at least for now) and, PLEASE, any who want to contact me, you are more than welcome.

I will sorely miss you all.

-Lee
Damn.
Hate to see you leave.
We will sorely miss you, even those of us who just got to know you...



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Old 05-01-2001, 10:46 AM   #42
Moni
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LadyRae,
Please reconsider leaving the forum. Life is full of misunderstandings and we really can't expect everyone around us to live by our standards or not step on our toes every now and then.
I really liked getting to know you before the forum was down for those two weeks and I think it would be a shame if you let this chase you away.



Hugs,
Moni

 
Old 05-01-2001, 11:00 AM   #43
Donut
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Age: 39
Posts: 5,571
I feel that I need to reply to this thread to explain the thoughts behind my posts there.

I saw the 'testosterone' thread as a parody (but not a judgement or criticism) of the Ladies Guild thread. The sexist jokes and other comments were a parody of the way 'some' men behave when they meet as a group without women being present. It was really meant to poke fun at male behaviour. As someone else has commented I was 'hamming it up'. I certainly don't hold these beliefs and wouldn't even joke about sexism if I didn't feel I was amongst friends.

I have a very dry sense of humour and it is not always easy to convey that I am joking. I often 'prod' people to get a response. I enjoy the banter on the board between the sexes and the different nationalities here. Again, this type of behaviour would likely result in a punch on the nose if I were not amongst friends. I do it on the board because I would like to feel that there is a degree of trust between us.

Lee I am sorry if I misjudged our friendship and caused offence. I hope that you stay long enough to read this and that you may reconsider your decision.

Fred


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Old 05-01-2001, 11:24 AM   #44
Sir_Tainly
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Hi all,

just weighing in here as I feel there's a lot of bitterness and hatred between sexes being banded around here, and I feel that its not constructive, or indeed that mature. I have reread the "offending thread" several times, and it mostly sounds like an evening down the pub. Certainly the women I know would give as good sexist jokes as they got, it's banter.

In regard to your comments Moiraine, I respect you, and consider you one of my friends, but I do work in a company where 70% of the managers are women, my boss is a woman, and her boss is too. Likewise at my last company my line manager was a woman. I have no problem with this as long as they continue to do a good job, which they do. No flame intended here just expressing my opinion.

I just feel that we all need to just ease off a little, we can all get along, even if we find people we don't like, we just have to be polite and civil, and exercie our individual rights not to associate with them. I feel really disappointed that such as minor thread, which no one has posted to for 24hrs, has caused such disruption.

All I can say again, is I find it very disappointing.

Sir Tainly

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Old 05-01-2001, 02:55 PM   #45
Moridin
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by LadyRae:


I am sorry all, for the anger. That isn't my style either. And yes, you menfolk, I do forgive the thoughtless remarks as I know you are the product of a society that condones this kind of thing in it's men. 'All in fun' is a great excuse for injustice committed against all minorities. The fact that it's still okay for this against women but not for those other's mentioned in my first angry post gives me hope and tells me that we have indeed come a long ways on the road to being civilized.


-Lee
This maybe beating a dead horse, but I just logged on and read this thread.
LadyRae (hopefully you have not left), please do not 'lump' all of us men in one group. That has been the unfortunate practice of most males in our society and for a minority group (women, blacks, hispanics....) to do the same makes them no better! You talk about the negativity of stereotypes and yet you turn around and say "oh you are a man, I don't expect any better", well I take great offence to being stereotyped as a typical male. I have grown up in a household where the women have been as if not more successful than the men. Both my grandmothers were the first in their families to attend college. My mother for the majority of my time growing up, earned more than my dad (and yes they were both college educated), my wife (who had an affair and moved out, what....isn't this supposed to be a male thing to do) is graduating from MBA school and will earn more than twice as much as me, and suprise, suprise two 'men' from her school took jobs at the same firm and guess what they are all being paid the SAME salary. In my department at work there are 28 women and 24 men (and this is banking, isn't this supposed to be a male-dominated industry?), the systems group has 3 women and 1 man, my boss is female, her boss is male, and his boss is female!
I will 100% agree that there is sexism and racism in this nation and there needs to be change until "all men [people] are created equal" as it states in our declaration of independence. However, it is not only the 'middle-class, white male' that needs to be involved in this change, it is going to take everyone working together as individuals.
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Old 05-01-2001, 03:33 PM   #46
Sazerac
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Ohhhhh....this is what I most feared.

Dear LadyRae, if you are still reading this, once again I sympathize with you for your hurt feelings. I do understand how you feel, and there seems to have been much misunderstanding here. I can only hope that after a time you will rejoin us, as I consider you to be a worthy person and a good acquaintance.

This is exactly what I was speaking about in my earlier post on this thread. If we continue to divide ourselves by gender, age, race, etc...such misunderstandings will continue to be perpetuated. Like Moridin, I'm probably beating a dead horse by saying so, but if it saves anyone any more hurt feelings, it needs to be said. I'd also hate to think that forum members would be scared off of posting future material in worry that they may "offend" someone. I'm all for thoughtfulness and sensitivity towards others, but "political correctness", IMO, has gone way too far in our society.

Anyway, I don't think that the men posting in the "Testasterone" thread meant to be inflammatory or hateful. Probably rather thoughtless and tasteless, but not deliberately so. At least, that's what I got from reading through it. I can only hope that the hurt feelings will subside in time, and that LadyRae may decide to rejoin us.

Respectfully,

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Old 05-01-2001, 04:03 PM   #47
Tobbin
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Holiday, FL
Age: 56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moridin:
This maybe beating a dead horse, but I just logged on and read this thread.
LadyRae (hopefully you have not left), please do not 'lump' all of us men in one group. That has been the unfortunate practice of most males in our society and for a minority group (women, blacks, hispanics....) to do the same makes them no better! You talk about the negativity of stereotypes and yet you turn around and say "oh you are a man, I don't expect any better", well I take great offence to being stereotyped as a typical male. I have grown up in a household where the women have been as if not more successful than the men. Both my grandmothers were the first in their families to attend college. My mother for the majority of my time growing up, earned more than my dad (and yes they were both college educated), my wife (who had an affair and moved out, what....isn't this supposed to be a male thing to do) is graduating from MBA school and will earn more than twice as much as me, and suprise, suprise two 'men' from her school took jobs at the same firm and guess what they are all being paid the SAME salary. In my department at work there are 28 women and 24 men (and this is banking, isn't this supposed to be a male-dominated industry?), the systems group has 3 women and 1 man, my boss is female, her boss is male, and his boss is female!
I will 100% agree that there is sexism and racism in this nation and there needs to be change until "all men [people] are created equal" as it states in our declaration of independence. However, it is not only the 'middle-class, white male' that needs to be involved in this change, it is going to take everyone working together as individuals.
I am in awe Moridin. You have stated everything in a fashion I could only aspire to. On that note, I would like to add that I was partially guilty for the statements made on the testosterone thread. It was meant sarcastically (towards towards those who condone these beliefs) and not literally though as I stated those terms came from my father. I do not believe in them. Neither did I mean to promote them. I actually brought it up to see if there were others who still had the old generation trying to teach these rules. Other than this, I will not state any other opinions as I believe they could lead to more negative thoughts (not that they would be meant that way, but with everyone's ire rising, I'm sure a few would.)



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Old 05-01-2001, 06:33 PM   #48
Moiraine
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Guys, there is a big misunderstanding here. Sir Tainly, Moridin, keep in mind that your experiences may not been shared by everyone. Here we are all feeling that we are among close friends, and it is easy to forget that there are real differences between us in age, culture and general life experience. I feel like I understand both sides of the topic, and that makes me unwillingly in the middle of it all. OK, so let's go. I myself DIDN'T feel offended by the incriminated posts. Because they were written by people I esteem, and I never thought one second that they should be taken at face value. BUT, based on my own experience, and on a lot of books I have read talking about other women's experiences, I can totally inderstand why LadyRae got mad. I tried to share that understanding, obviously I failed. Try again, Moiraine (sigh). She got hurt because these jokes went on top of a heap of little frustrating sexist things that she experiences every day of her life. She got hurt because she was believing that there was ONE place where she wouldn't hear that kind of jokes, even 'for fun', and that place would be here. She got the feeling to be stabbed in the back by people she thought were her friends. She was telling you that in RL you wouldn't make jokes about fat men around a fat friend, or about black men around a black friend, even sarcastically, unless they had started first to make fun of themselves, telling by it that they were OK with it. You assumed that she was OK with it, that we were all OK with it, and you inadvertently put salt on an open wound. It is not a matter of 'growing up and getting stronger'. Different people with different natures and different life experiences have different sensitivities to a same matter.

Now, what would you do in RL if one of your good friends felt hurt by something you did ? Staying on your position that you had done nothing wrong, or say you are sorry ? I am not talking about judging if you have or haven't said something wrong, I am talking about not losing a friend to misunderstanding and hurt. So put your righteous anger at being put in the same bag as all manhood in your pocket, and try to get her back. Have you never been angry, dammit ? Do you want to lose a friend because you think you are so right ?

I am not talking about you here, Donut - you DID tell her you were sorry.

I think that, being all human and so widely different besides our common RPG interests, we are all of us bound to sometimes hurt somebody's feelings, try as we might not to. The Ladies Guild was intended to make us women feel as a group for once - playing RPGs, we feel alone everywhere else than here. It was not meant as a division - when Melusine talks Dutch with Rikard, do you feel it as a division ? My point is, hurt feelings WILL happen, and then the only attitude we have to have is to say how sorry we are, and explain why it happened - as Donut did.

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[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 05-01-2001).]
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Old 05-01-2001, 06:50 PM   #49
Stealthy
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Dundee in Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 543
I think it is also important to remember that it is very difficult to understand the subtext of a post, when you can't hear the tone and see the body language of the person who is conveying the message. Hence when Donut was being ironical, some took it on face value. Also, for many English is a second language and the nuances are lost. Finally, humour varies from country to country, so before we assume the worst, count to ten and ask the person to explain themselves.

I would hate for anybody to leave the board, especially over a misunderstanding. I hope LadyRae reconsiders and does come back and discusses this with the men concerned, so a better understabnding can be achieved and these problems can be avoided in the future. I have always loved this board more than any other, because the people who come here are the best and problems are talked through, without resorting to the levels of other boards. Long may it stay that way.

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Old 05-01-2001, 06:55 PM   #50
Moiraine
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Stealthy, well said, as always.

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