Yet another(!!!) Power Party from Klorox (please critique and comment, ect.)

[Klorox]

I've been really trying to get a party that works well as a power unit, and that I am really comfortable playing. I beat the game on regular mode, but kinda pushed myself through it, because there were characters I didn't really like.

Before starting, I'd like to thank the members of this board and the guys who made the UPP and JUPP (which you can download at gamefaqs.com), because they really helped me make this party what it is. I think it's really cool that all four of my party members have a "special bonus" in their future (two have Cleric of Bane levels, two have Paladin levels). My tactics include a decent amount of squatting, but I'm not a fan of mules. I think that's just too cheesey.

Anyway, my party uses two decoys, one of which is a (almost) complete ripoff of one of the characters in the JUPP.

Here she is:

Character 1: Gneelixx
LN Deep Gnome
Clr(Bane)24/Monk1/Rog1/Ftr4
S:16 D:20 C:14 I:3 W:20 Ch:1
The idea here is to go through regular mode as a Cleric only, maximizing WIS at every opportunity. When I get near the end of the game, I can add 1 level of Monk. To minimize XP penalties, the Rogue level isn't added until the Underdark in HoF mode, and the 4 Fighter levels are all squatted at the very end, just to specialize in Axes. Her only skill is Concentration.

Character 2: Gnick O'Thyme
LG Deep Gnome
Ftr4/Rog4/Pal(Helm)3/Rng3/Ill16
S:16 D:20 C:13 I:18 W:6 Ch:1
This is my decoy, right from the very beginning. He'll be a dual-weilding guy who chips away at the enemies HP. I hope to get levels Ftr2/Rog2/Pal3/Rng2 and the rest in Illusionist for regular mode. This guy (if you count the Ranger Feats) has a total of 18 feats by the end of the game, which is outstanding. His skill responsibilities are basically all of the thiefy skills(Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Pick Pocket), as well as Alchemy.

Character 3: ZellMae
NE Drow (Female)
Brd11/Drd18/Clr(Bane)1
S:8 D:6 C:14 I:18 W:18 Ch:16
This is my "booster" character. She's responsible for singing, identifying stuff, and buffing the two decoys. Her offensive Druid spells will help in the higher levels, but most of her lower levels will be spent singing that level 1 bard song and firing (and usually missing) with arrows much of the time. I plan on getting to Bard level 5 (for the Luck song -- it's so good!), Cleric level 1, and then squatting for Druid level 4 or 5. Then it'll be a 1 for 1 level advancement between Bard and Druid. When I reach Bard 11/Druid 12, I'll squat for a while too, in efforts to reduce XP penalties. I put a lot of skill responsibility on this character as well. I expect all of the talking skills maxed out, as well as some Wilderness Lore, Spellcraft, and Knowledge(Arcana). I was hoping to get away with less points on the knowledge skills because of Bardic Knowledge, but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Character 4: Viktoriia
LG Aasimar Pal2/Sorc28
S:10 D:15 C:18 I:12 W:5 Ch:20
This is my blaster-master. Her spells will be very powerful and destructive. I'll take some of the buffing spells for her as well, since they'll have better durations than those of character 3. The Paladin levels are there to eliminate Fear from affecting the party and for that nice "Lay on Hands" ability. The bonus to Saving Throws is the big one though. I wouldn't add the Paladin levels until after the Sheangarne Bridge, and might push it further. I'd really love to have a casting of Fireball before the bridge, it makes that scene a whole lot easier. Her only skills are Spellcraft and Concentration.

[Aerich]

1) It's ok, I guess. I personally wouldn't have my only cleric be a) a 3 ECL race and b) a decoy. Part of the greatness of a Dreadmaster is highly effective enchantment spells, which it cannot cast without risk if it's sitting in the frontlines.

2) I don't think the ranger class adds anything here. I'd rather have the extra 3 levels in illusionist, especially as you would be able to start progression in the spellcasting class sooner. Use two of your fighter feats on the dual-wield feats if you really have to.

3) It's ok.

4) Fine. Why 15 in Dex? Are you planning to add to it? I understand the uneven Wis (Pally bonus stat will bring it up), but the Dex has me mystified. If you add the extra point to Int instead, you could take Expertise if you want it.

Some additional comments on party structure:

I understand that you want a powerful party. What I don't understand is why it is so uneven. It is generally unnecessary to have two decoys, and it's downright strange in a 4-character party. I'd prefer to replace a decoy (probably #1) with a stronger cleric (no ECL penalty) that is better in offensive melee - e.g. a dwarven Battleguard. The party is severely lacking in arcane support, so I'd make it a priority to develop #2's spellcasting ability sooner.

Realistically, you have a decoy, an underpowered cleric/decoy, a support character, and a bomber. That's three characters devoted to making an effective meatwall, and one character devoted to killing stuff. If you are committed to carrying only 4 characters, I'd strive for a better balance. If you intend to add additional characters (e.g. two out of three of a backline cleric, wizard, and offensive meleer), the current balance is ok.

[Klorox]

Originally posted by Aerich: 1) It's ok, I guess. I personally wouldn't have my only cleric be a) a 3 ECL race and b) a decoy. Part of the greatness of a Dreadmaster is highly effective enchantment spells, which it cannot cast without risk if it's sitting in the frontlines.

I'm struggling to understand why the ECL is a problem. The first chapter might be a little tougher, but after that I haven't really noticed a difference in this game. I played through the game on regular mode with this same character (no mix-ins, just a single-classed Cleric) and finished at level 18. Since this Dreadmaster has an extremely high AC, I'm not worried about being on the frontlines with her. Even if she does get hit, she'll have a really good Concentration skill.

Originally posted by Aerich: 2) I don't think the ranger class adds anything here. I'd rather have the extra 3 levels in illusionist, especially as you would be able to start progression in the spellcasting class sooner. Use two of your fighter feats on the dual-wield feats if you really have to.

Otherwise you think this one is alright? I also wanted to avoid higher than level 16 in Illusionist because it's difficult to raise INT in this game (for a decoy anyway, who needs to pump all his stats into DEX) and I'm limited to level 8 spells. I thought the additional Hit Points and Skill Points from the Ranger class would help a lot in the beginning.

Originally posted by Aerich: 3) It's ok.

Wow. I thought this was my weakest character!

Originally posted by Aerich: 4) Fine. Why 15 in Dex? Are you planning to add to it? I understand the uneven Wis (Pally bonus stat will bring it up), but the Dex has me mystified. If you add the extra point to Int instead, you could take Expertise if you want it.

No. She has a 15 DEX because at a high enough level, I'll cast Cat's Grace on her, and it's a chance at a better BAB with missile weapons. I'm not concerned about WIS with her because after adding a Paladin level, I doubt she'd fail any saving throws again. I'm not really concerned with Expertise. I want to spend my feats on enhancing spells, and if I play my cards right, this character will never be targetted with weapons.

Originally posted by Aerich: Some additional comments on party structure: I understand that you want a powerful party. What I don't understand is why it is so uneven. It is generally unnecessary to have two decoys, and it's downright strange in a 4-character party. I'd prefer to replace a decoy (probably #1) with a stronger cleric (no ECL penalty) that is better in offensive melee - e.g. a dwarven Battleguard. The party is severely lacking in arcane support, so I'd make it a priority to develop #2's spellcasting ability sooner. Realistically, you have a decoy, an underpowered cleric/decoy, a support character, and a bomber. That's three characters devoted to making an effective meatwall, and one character devoted to killing stuff. If you are committed to carrying only 4 characters, I'd strive for a better balance. If you intend to add additional characters (e.g. two out of three of a backline cleric, wizard, and offensive meleer), the current balance is ok.

Thank you very much. I was thinking that two decoys would make the game much easier. I really appreciate your feedback. [img]smile.gif[/img]

There was another party I was considering, with an attempt to keep things a lot simpler:

Character 1 is a Deep Gnome Monk. With a 13 INT for Expertise, he can reach the critical AC of 72 (although he won't have much use other than being the decoy). He'd really excell in that role though. He'd move faster than any other character possibly could, his magic resistance would be through the roof, and even with a lower STR (I think I built him with an 8), at higher levels he'd still do a decent amount of damage with his fists (I believe Ease of Use makes fists finessable, which goes nicely with his 20 DEX).

Having a completely dedicated decoy would allow me to build the other characters in a pretty simple way:

Character 2: Aasimar Pal2/SorcX. Blaster here, just like above.
Character 3: Drow Cleric(Tempus)13/Druid17. This girl can help out in the early game with melee, and can toss that awesome throwing axe from battlesquares when not casting a spell.

I'm still debating on whether or not I need a 4th character here. While it'd be nice to have a thief, I really don't know if I need one. Here were some ideas for a 4th character:

4a: Male Drow Rogue 2/Wizard X. This one covers all thieving skills and can blast around the decoy.
4b: Deep Gnome Rogue 2/Cleric(Bane)1/Illusionist X. Just like 4a, with a Cleric level thrown in to get around the specialist mage restrictions.
4c: Character #2 from the first party offers a little additional melee capability with the thiving skills covered.
4d: Aasimar Pal2/Cleric(Lathander)X. Just a divine version of another blaster.

[ 06-22-2007, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Klorox ]

[Aerich]

You're missing a couple of quote tags. I'll address your second party proposal when I have a bit more time.

The AC on #1 won't be that high until you add the monk level and take the XP penalty. The ECL is somewhat counterbalanced by having 4 characters instead of 6, but adding an XP penalty to it is just too much for my taste. Additionally, I rank Dreadmasters as second highest priority characters to be shielded in HoF (behind sorcerors). While this character should be hard to hit, a disrupted enchantment spell could mean reloads.

As for your #2, you already have 18 Int, so I don't think it's a big deal to spend one level-up stat point on Int. Look at it this way: lvl 9 spells vs 0.5 of an AC point. I'll take the spells, thank you. Three pally levels, 2 fighter levels, and 2 rogue levels will give you enough HP to start with - by my count, that's 76 HP at lvl 7, +6 for every illusionist level. With 18 Int, don't worry about skill points. If you have to short any skills, make it Hide and Move Silently. Those aren't all that useful after the first chapter or so anyway.

Now that I look at it again, I would tinker with #3 a little bit. The class distribution and character role is fine, but the stats could use a bit of work. I understand why you've pumped Int, Wis, and Cha, so leave those. I hate really low Dex, so I'd be tempted to raise Dex to 10, taking 2 points each from Str and Con. The idea with this character is never to be attacked anyway, right?

For #4, who is going to be casting Cat's Grace? #2 should be using almost all 2nd lvl slots for Mirror Image. Are you going to take Cat's Grace with #4? My thought is that you'll be waiting a while for it, because Web, Mirror Image, Melf's AA, and maybe even Scorcher or Snilloc's are higher priority. I suppose you could get #3 to cast it, either through the bard spells or by adding the mod for additional druid spells. I might be inclined to just even out the Wis stat. A slightly lesser penalty to Will saves in the early going may be of more help that a chance at a +1 BAB later on.

[Klorox]

I was planning on taking Cat's Grace with the Bard and later with the Sorcerer. The Bard will concentrate on buffs first, while the Sorcerer concentrates on blasting first.


I'll answer better a little later, as well as get to editing that first reply. Gotta run!

[Marty4]

I'll second Aerich in that the double-decoy seems a bit dicey. You appear to be entirely dependent on your sorceress for damage, as the others in your party will either be tanking or singing (I guess
#3 could do some damage, but I've never been a big fan of druids).

Perhaps another nuker? You can't go wrong with a mage, especially with the right build. A Drow mage with a few levels of paladin, ranger, and rogue is the most powerful character that I've ever played in IWD2, and truly doesn't suffer too much from his ECL penalty, especially with less than 6 characters. It would free up your sorcerer/bard spells for pure offense while the mage can learn things like Cat's Grace and ilk.

[Klorox]

Originally posted by Aerich: You're missing a couple of quote tags.

Fixed! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Aerich: I'll address your second party proposal when I have a bit more time.

Sounds great. Again, I really appreciate all this feedback!

Originally posted by Aerich: The AC on #1 won't be that high until you add the monk level and take the XP penalty. The ECL is somewhat counterbalanced by having 4 characters instead of 6, but adding an XP penalty to it is just too much for my taste. Additionally, I rank Dreadmasters as second highest priority characters to be shielded in HoF (behind sorcerors). While this character should be hard to hit, a disrupted enchantment spell could mean reloads.

For normal mode (before the Monk level is added), I treat this character as much more of a standard cleric. She wears armor, and lets the one decoy charge ahead. With heavy armor, a shield, and the DG AC bonus, she has a better AC than any other fighter type, and still packs a pretty good punch with a mace and 16 base STR (which is always boosted with spells) and the Power Attack feat.

Originally posted by Aerich: Now that I look at it again, I would tinker with #3 a little bit. The class distribution and character role is fine, but the stats could use a bit of work. I understand why you've pumped Int, Wis, and Cha, so leave those. I hate really low Dex, so I'd be tempted to raise Dex to 10, taking 2 points each from Str and Con. The idea with this character is never to be attacked anyway, right?

Right. So if she's never attacked, why pump DEX? If she ever is attacked, she's going to be hit easily no matter what (that's what Mirror Image is for ). I'll probably be firing a returning arrow here and there, but most of the time this characters role is to sing and be casting spells.

[Klorox]

Originally posted by Marty4: I'll second Aerich in that the double-decoy seems a bit dicey.

Fair enough. EDIT: I'm still very curious about this, and I'd love a little more detail as to why it's "dicey" or "too much". The character is a single classed Cleric throughout all of normal mode. As I've said earlier, I ended the game at 18th level with her before, which is great for any character IMO in this game. Eventually, in HoF mode, this same Cleric will take a hit on XP for an incredible AC. I've read the argument that a Cleric is in danger on the front lines... but with a 72 AC? She can still cast great Enchantment spells, and can still dominate the game with a well placed Flame Strike. In addition to this, she can almost never be hit in combat, has a great spell resistance, and does a ton of damage with a greataxe.

Originally posted by Marty4: You appear to be entirely dependent on your sorceress for damage, as the others in your party will either be tanking or singing (I guess #3 could do some damage, but I've never been a big fan of druids).

This I disagree with, both decoys have a decent STR score. When the Cleric decoy gets her Monk level, she'll be weilding great axes with a STR 18-21 (bull's Strength) constantly, and has the Holy Power spell as well as Power Attack pumped all the way. That's a lot of damage production. Decoy #2 will have a higher STR score (Bull's Strength, plus the Paladin quest bumps STR up a point), and will be specialized in Long Swords for the Holy Avenger. (I guess this response really depends on your definition of tanking though, as the Sorceress will be the only source of magical damage, along with some lightning spells from the Druid)

Originally posted by Marty4: Perhaps another nuker? You can't go wrong with a mage, especially with the right build. A Drow mage with a few levels of paladin, ranger, and rogue is the most powerful character that I've ever played in IWD2, and truly doesn't suffer too much from his ECL penalty, especially with less than 6 characters. It would free up your sorcerer/bard spells for pure offense while the mage can learn things like Cat's Grace and ilk.

Sounds like a cool character concept. It also sounds very much like my Character #2 classwise, just a slightly different focus.

[ 06-22-2007, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Klorox ]

[Klorox]

Originally posted by Aerich: I'll address your second party proposal when I have a bit more time.

Bumpkowski!

[Aerich]

Addressing a couple points from previous posts...

The reason to put #3's Dex up to 10 is so you don't incur an attack roll penalty with missile weapons.

IIRC, Marty soloed that pal/rgr/ro/wiz a long time ago - before silverdragon ever posted his guide.

The problem with a double decoy system in your party is damage production. You appear to be comfortable with the amount of damage you will be able to do, but it's a little light for my taste (and Marty's too, it seems). Having two decoys isn't all bad, especially in a full party, but it is problematic in a party of 4 where you also have a fairly dedicated support character. You don't really have an archer, melee grunt, or potent secondary caster to back up the sorceress.

There was another party I was considering, with an attempt to keep things a lot simpler: Character 1 is a Deep Gnome Monk. With a 13 INT for Expertise, he can reach the critical AC of 72 (although he won't have much use other than being the decoy). He'd really excell in that role though. He'd move faster than any other character possibly could, his magic resistance would be through the roof, and even with a lower STR (I think I built him with an 8), at higher levels he'd still do a decent amount of damage with his fists (I believe Ease of Use makes fists finessable, which goes nicely with his 20 DEX). Having a completely dedicated decoy would allow me to build the other characters in a pretty simple way: Character 2: Aasimar Pal2/SorcX. Blaster here, just like above. Character 3: Drow Cleric(Tempus)13/Druid17. This girl can help out in the early game with melee, and can toss that awesome throwing axe from battlesquares when not casting a spell. I'm still debating on whether or not I need a 4th character here. While it'd be nice to have a thief, I really don't know if I need one. Here were some ideas for a 4th character: 4a: Male Drow Rogue 2/Wizard X. This one covers all thieving skills and can blast around the decoy. 4b: Deep Gnome Rogue 2/Cleric(Bane)1/Illusionist X. Just like 4a, with a Cleric level thrown in to get around the specialist mage restrictions. 4c: Character #2 from the first party offers a little additional melee capability with the thiving skills covered. 4d: Aasimar Pal2/Cleric(Lathander)X. Just a divine version of another blaster.

I'd actually make this a 5-character party. I'm acting on the assumption that this party is to be as powergamish as possible.

#1 is fine, and I've played one. My character took some levels of illusionist to help with the tanking part. I lost the monk's special BAB table, but it was a great decoy (and that's about it).

#2 is fine. No surprises here, and it pairs well with #1.

#3 is a mess, in my opinion. You've posted a couple of characters like this before, and my advice is the same - pick a casting class and stick with it. Splitting levels between two powerful casting class is giving up too much power for the illusion of versatility.

I'd split it into two characters. Take a Ftr4/Battleguard and a Druid with some non-caster mix-ins (Fighter, Ranger or Barbarian, maybe even 3 levels of Rogue if you want to cover thief skills that way). I'd optimize both of them for combat (max Str, high Con and Dex) so you have two characters that are equally adept at melee, missile, and spell combat. A battle Druid should be human, so you can minimize Int and still get 1 skill point/level for each of Concentration and Spellcraft.

I'd add a fifth character with a major class of wizard. I'm always uncomfortable relying solely on a sorceror for arcane ability, as there are many useful spells that a sorceror just won't take. You could go for the thief skills with a Rogue/Wizard combo, or go for a talker with a Bard/Wizard combo - both drow. The R/W (take at least 3-4 levels of rogue, spaced out) covers all the sneaky stuff. The B/W could take either 5 or 11 levels of bard, and gives you a superior support character (dialogue, item identification, some rogue skill access) with offensive punch.