standing for peace

[Gabriel]

I been wondoring here to post this and I think this shall be the place.

I understand that this so called 'war' on terrorism will happen, even if they give Bin Laden over but I do not agree with it. The very act of moving US forces will kill thousands of innocents, Afghanistan is on the verge of famine and around 20% of the population is estimated to starve to death by the end of this year. That number will probably rise now that people have stopped trying to grow food and now that aid organisations have pulled out.
The planned strategic bombing will probably be useless, Afghanistan has not infrastructure to bomb and if the training camps are found they will contain only a few troops if any. The 'higher-ups' will be in safe locations, some not even in Afghanistan. Also many he has training camps outside Afghanistan, in areas that are sympathetic to his cause like Pakistan.
Any planned insertion of ground troops will only lead to attack by the Talaben (if they haven't attacked all ready.) and probably the rebels’ factions who might see it as an invasion of their country. This 'war' will also be fought as a Griller war, which America wasn't fought since Vietnam and will probably last until winter. Since Afghanistan is a mountain nation it winters are harsh, and all of these factions will lead to heavy losses for the US.
These actions may also strengthen the Talaban control, as I heard that they were close to entering a civil war between various generals who seek power.
Also 'others' outside Afghanistan will perform more attacks on US soil and that of any who support them.
This whole thing will only lead to a lot more deaths on both sides.



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Hodge-podge Sliver Cleric of the ALSB

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Look Moridin. I lived in London for 18 years, during much of which time I was exposed to IRA terrorist activity (until the peace process started kicking in). We never knew where they would strike next. I have lost count of the times I've been evacuated off the tube during bomb scares. I heard bombs go off, and felt the ground shake as they did so. I have friends who have lost relatives in bomb attacks. We never really felt safe during those years. We knew the terrorists could strike at any time. So, yes, I know what it feels like. The Irish had it a lot worse, of course! My last long term relationship was with a guy from Northern Ireland, from Derry. What he told me made my hair stand on end. Having said that, what should Britain have done, in your opinion. Gone in and dropped bombs on Northern Ireland? Declared war? (Remembering that we too, like America in Afghanistan, did a lot to create the original problem.) I don't think so. Just to go off the main topic for a sec, - as you're probably aware, misguided Americans have been funding, and are still funding, IRA activity. I was listening to an American guy on the radio just the other day, who was insisting that funding was limited to helping the families of the people in prison. Why give money to these people at all, in any way shape or form? (Yes, I know that's not all Americans. But Americans ARE funding terrorism in Britain and Northern Ireland! Some are continuing to do it, even now...) In reply to your first point, no, I am not saying hold meetings and write reports til the next big attack! What I'm saying is for America to get together under law with the rest of the world, and get some proper legislation and a proper, thoughtout coherent strategy in place to eradicate or at least diminish terrorism. Stop acting unilaterally. You are not the only ones to suffer from terrorist activity. That includes looking at the why's and wherefore's of terrorism, (cause and effect) forging better links with the middle east, getting the first steps in place towards pursuing a long term strategy that would be designed to benefit the many, rather short term strategies as has been the case in the past. (E.g. Russia and America f*cking off and leaving Afghanistan to fend for herself, after being lucky enough to get caught in the middle of the cold war. (Superpowers - jesus christ. Let's just walz all over the middle east and who gives a flying whatsit about the damage we cause, and the trouble we lay up for outselves.) America's policies in the past, in the Middle East as elsewhere, have been self interested to say the least. It's time America, (and Europe!) began pursuing policies of enlightened self interest, i.e. what's good for you is good for me. (That idea of a win/win situation...) Looking at the possible consequences of what is done, rather than blundering around flailing wildly as you grab at whatever goody (e.g. oil oil oil oil oil) you happen to be after at the time.

And how many people died waiting for that peace process?

I am not saying a military action should be our only response, but it is needed! We have been attacked on a scale that dwarfs any other terrorist attack in history...sure when you strip it away terrorism is terrorism, but this is not a bomb on the subway that killed and hurt a couple of people...more people died in this 1 attack then all of the people that have died as a result of terrorism in Northern Ireland.

We do need a unilateral response to terrorism, but you know as well as I do that all talk and no action will not work. For years we have been talking and talking, holding our meetings and passing our legislation and look at what it got us...numerous collapsed or destroyed bldgs, 4 destroyed planes, 6000+ people dead and millions of others irrevocably harmed!

Terrorists do not read legislation, nor do they abide by our laws...they understand killing and that is it! Also, what do we do with terrorists that aren't afraid to die? How do we capture them? They are willing to die and they would die (often taking a lot of people with them) rather than being caught! We cannot simply go in and arrest him with the local police force...and he is not going to "come out with his hands up"...he is going to fight and fight dirty and the only way to stop that is with a military force.

We need a long-term strategy, but we also need a short-term solution to at least hold at bay the terrorists that we know are out there, scheming and planning their next attack on innocents!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Tancred]

Originally posted by Gabriel: Afghanistan, in areas that are sympathetic to his cause like Pakistan. Any planned insertion of ground troops will only lead to attack by the Talaben (if they haven't attacked all ready.) and probably the rebels’ factions who might see it as an invasion of their country.

It's only a minor point, but skirmishes between SAS covert teams and Taliban scouts have already been reported - and the Western forces and the rebel factions are said to have entered into an alliance against the Taliban.

[tracey]

the last 2 posts answer fully my pacifist attitude. particularly silver cheetah's response re the ira. i was about to say the same thing and have done on a different thread.

britain has fought with the ira for 30 years'. they're on our doorstep and we can't stop their attacks though our forces have tried many and varied ways to do so. negotiation and trying to understand and stop pissing off and exploiting other nations would be a good starting point rather than a need for revenge attacks.

anyway, they haven't happened yet, and hopefully they won't. if enough of us get out there and protest about it, maybe we can make a difference.

it's just a thought, but maybe peaceful protest and a call for discussion and understanding might be a better option than death.

death meaning the irrevocable loss of life, continued existance and conciousness gone. that's it. innocent lives gone forever. dead. deceaced. no more. DEAD.

i don't want that on my conscience if the government i didn't elect support the us in military action. therefore i have no choice but to keep on standing around on street corners with a banner.

the idea of useless and senseless DEATH makes me feel totally and completely sick.

[tracey]

check.

gabriel and silver cheetah's posts answer the pacifist voice in my soul.

[Tancred]

Originally posted by tracey: the idea of useless and senseless DEATH makes me feel totally and completely sick.

The entire world is full of useless and senseless death, tracey. Nothing the US army can do could even measure as a blip against the vast scale of death we have already seen on this planet. Successful and unsuccessful governments feed on death. The blood of heroes, villains and the innocent has forged every country, every state, made every fortune and, ultimately, it is the only thing any of us can know is coming. This war going to happen (maybe not this year, maybe not in ten, but it will - it's been brewing for 35 years), no matter how many voices are raised in protest, unless the governments of the world are toppled and peace - true peace, without boundaries and without nations and without religions and without cultures, a world where humans live - is established. I don't think that's going to happen in our lifetimes, unless a miracle occurs. You're going to have to harden your heart, or your soul is going to be crushed in a very short time on this world.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Moridin: And how many people died waiting for that peace process? I am not saying a military action should be our only response, but it is needed! We have been attacked on a scale that dwarfs any other terrorist attack in history...sure when you strip it away terrorism is terrorism, but this is not a bomb on the subway that killed and hurt a couple of people...more people died in this 1 attack then all of the people that have died as a result of terrorism in Northern Ireland. We do need a unilateral response to terrorism, but you know as well as I do that all talk and no action will not work. For years we have been talking and talking, holding our meetings and passing our legislation and look at what it got us...numerous collapsed or destroyed bldgs, 4 destroyed planes, 6000+ people dead and millions of others irrevocably harmed! Terrorists do not read legislation, nor do they abide by our laws...they understand killing and that is it! Also, what do we do with terrorists that aren't afraid to die? How do we capture them? They are willing to die and they would die (often taking a lot of people with them) rather than being caught! We cannot simply go in and arrest him with the local police force...and he is not going to "come out with his hands up"...he is going to fight and fight dirty and the only way to stop that is with a military force. We need a long-term strategy, but we also need a short-term solution to at least hold at bay the terrorists that we know are out there, scheming and planning their next attack on innocents!

Moridin, what I am (wearily) saying, is that military action is unlikely to work in the way that you hope. Firstly, because the people you want are very likely elsewhere by now, and secondly, because you run the risk of creating more terrorists by your very actions. How do you think various middle eastern regimes are going publicise what you are doing to their people? For every terrorist you kill, 100 more will spring up, eager and willing to take their place. War is just going to escalate the whole situation. To even have a hope of eradicating terrorism, you'd have to flatten the whole of the Middle East, basically, which isn't an option.

We need to stop with the rhetoric, and snap reactions, and take a long cold hard look at what needs to be done on a global scale to stop terrorism.

Anyway,I'm bowing out of this discussion for the time being, because like pretty much everyone else, I just seem to be repeating myself over and over and over again! Goodnight ducks.


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[tracey]

tancred
you may be fully prepared to go along with that model of human existance as acceptable. i'm not. i think that if we've learned nothing from history then perhaps we all deserve to kiss our asses goodbye because we've chosen to go along with the decicions of others'.

i've seen too much of it before. when i see people suffer and die i can't harden my heart to them. i can't and i don't want to. if i ever become so cold hearted and disdainful of others' right to live i hope someone puts a bullet between my eyes.

[Tancred]

Originally posted by tracey: tancred you may be fully prepared to go along with that model of human existance as acceptable. i'm not. i think that if we've learned nothing from history then perhaps we all deserve to kiss our asses goodbye because we've chosen to go along with the decicions of others'. i've seen too much of it before. when i see people suffer and die i can't harden my heart to them. i can't and i don't want to. if i ever become so cold hearted and disdainful of others' right to live i hope someone puts a bullet between my eyes.

I don't think it's acceptable. I do not accept it is the end result of all human society. God, I pray for a miracle. But whether I see it as acceptable, whether you do not... it IS. The cold-hearted and the disdainful rule here.

[tracey]

then i pity you