The Eternal War: Human Nature

I have to admit, even if organic stuff was the same price as normally grown foods, I still wouldnt buy it. Mostly because im arguably the pickyest eater on the planet and I don't eat very many veggies or fruits to start with. [img]smile.gif[/img] The crop yields for the Organics reult in a much higher crop loss due to parasites and disease. We wouldn't feed nearly as many people if all our crops were grown to "organic" standards.

My proof of the futility and waste of the "Organic" crops is that people who have been useing "organicly grown" food since the early 60's aren't living a . There was a national gardening show on WMAL some months ago, they reported that there has been no correlation to health benefits of the so called organicly grown produce. If Im not mistaken Dr. Dean Adel also talked about the waste of money and the hype that is called "organic foods".

You can eat what you wish to eat, theres room enough to grow both types. All the decadently rich americans that want to spend 150% more for the same product with shorter shelf life be my guest [img]smile.gif[/img]

Good sites TL, very one sided sites and more than a bit biased [img]smile.gif[/img] but good info nonetheless.

Umm you know, Im used to going off on tangents but this is really starting to getout there. I go back to the original ppost here and say, where you see doom and gloom, death and destruction, Im seeing a better quality of live on average for every human alive on the planet. And if man alters his surroundings, I say so what, there was nothing intrinsicly superior to the random naturalness that was there first. Man is no crueler than nature and no more destructive for that matter. We just happen to be a species that can think about it all.

[Timber Loftis]

WELL, to be honest, if you can find organic foods at only 150% the price you've done well - which is why I buy very little of it.

Look, let's make what I consider the ludicrous assumption that food without chemicals and preservatives that are proven cancer-causers is no better healthwise that the food that has been preserved injected and waxed. Fine, for a hypothetical I'll go with you there.

But, pesticide/herbicide runoff into the environment becomes yet another issue which, all on its own, would convince me to buy/eat organic when I can. I've mentioned before this story, so I apologize for the submission from the DORD (Dept. of Redundancy Dept.), but:

While driving I-80 across Nebraska, TL and his fiancee stopped at several rest stops (it's a looooonnng drive). At each and every one there was a "don't drink the water - too many Nitrates" sign posted. Nitrates are fertilizer. The same nitrates that wash down the Miss. to the gulf and have created the "dead zone" where fish have trouble living and fishermen have trouble making a living.

Now, aside from the personal anecdote, it doesn't take an PhD in evolutionary biology to understand that runoff of herbicides and pesticides not only promote resistance in the weeds and pests, but can have also been shown to create such wonderful things as pest resistant weeds.

So, dispensing with the health arguments, I still think there's reason to live with a little bit less man-made chemicals than we currently do.

Why defend chemicals so often and much, MagiK. Why accept wholesale so much the big corps tell you? Do you have any opinions that buck the status quo or party line? Are all chemicals good?
[Edit: no offense is intended here, of course you know. I'm just trying to see if that hiking you've been doing and that rural-living you've previously mentioned has left you thinking, in the very least, that sometimes there are parts of the world that are simply better without man-made structures marring them.]

[ 11-07-2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

I agree we should research better and more efficient materials to use for pesticides and fertilizers, I am not saying we need to stick with 10th century growing practices here. Or even with the current crop of chemicals used. Im against the HYPE of the "Organics" crowd.

One of my pet peeves though is the outrageous exergerations that get made "Cancer causing agents" and "diseases causing thats", what they never tell you is that you would have to eat the product in its pure form by the pound for fourty years to get the lab results they report about. It all goes back to my bias against inaccurate, sensationalized science. Everything has to be exagerated to get the funding to back your pet theory to....its just a real mess. Red Dye #2 off the market due to it being a cancer agent, except that no human could drink enough soda with red dye #2 in it in a life time to have itr affect them, DDT was banned from use around the world because a "very few" species of birds had problems with their egs, instead 30,000 deaths world wide mostly of young children due to malaria that cannot be checked with DDT the cheapest most effective prevantive. Yes Im waaay skeptical of a lot of things,
especially when I see sensational headlines about the issues.

TL im not saying that Organicly foods are bad, especially if you can afford them, but please look at the research done about the actual proven results of their consistant use, or lack there of. On the other hand PA has a lot of agriculture and could be argued that they have a vested interest in promoting modern farming techniques too....who knows?

[ 11-07-2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Suzaku]

Going back a few posts to your nature being harsh, that is my point. Nature is thus, and humans are trying to make nature a nice, all clean, all pleasant place. This is a prevailing attitude I don't think even you can deny. We are first off trying to perfect our society, which is one thing that will not occur.

A few other posts along the way, you mention garbage amounts being distorted by the government. Not true, I am going to seriously disagree with this one. I work at a small supermarket, and being a cook, one of my sub-jobs at the location is to take down the garbage to the bin of the complex for garbage collection. You ever seen one? The garbage amount is enormous! Presume 3 trips per day of a big roller bin like you see janitors with, 7 days a week. A not very busy week. Multiply by the various food establishments in the entire building(it's a mall), multiply by however much time you would like, and figure out the total garbage output. Not nice, let me tell you. You may choose to ignore and try to cover up all the facts that garbage output is huge out there, but the facts do exist. Ever seen photos of garbage disposal sites? There is one a 10 minute drive outside my city, I've been there. Not nice either. Accept it or ignore it and hope someone else does something about it.

EDIT: I used to eat inorganic fruits and got sick consistently for all my 6 elementary years a while ago. Eating organic foods now for the last 5 years, I can actually feel healthy. Don't tell me this is from sources you can't confirm, I do some research in the topic. You would not like to know what they put in some of their stuff, and yes I practice naturopathic medicine.

[ 11-07-2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Suzaku ]

[Timber Loftis]

Boy, I must apologize to the board at large for dragging Messrs. Muppets off on such a tangent there. I agree wholeheartedly with sensationalization. When you have a good point, overstatement only minimizes your validity.

In order to make amends, I'll tell you my word for the day:
ex·cur·sus Pronunciation Key (ik-skûr-ses)
n. pl. ex·cur·sus·es
A lengthy, appended exposition of a topic or point.
A digression.

Originally posted by Suzaku: Going back a few posts to your nature being harsh, that is my point. Nature is thus, and humans are trying to make nature a nice, all clean, all pleasant place. This is a prevailing attitude I don't think even you can deny. We are first off trying to perfect our society, which is one thing that will not occur. Ok I think I may have misunderstood one of the points you were making....I think I also got your very first post confused with one you made later, since your first post didnt have much to do with organic foods or any of the other OT stuff [img]smile.gif[/img] A few other posts along the way, you mention garbage amounts being distorted by the government. Not true, I am going to seriously disagree with this one. I work at a small supermarket, and being a cook, one of my sub-jobs at the location is to take down the garbage to the bin of the complex for garbage collection. You ever seen one? The garbage amount is enormous! Presume 3 trips per day of a big roller bin like you see janitors with, 7 days a week. A not very busy week. Multiply by the various food establishments in the entire building(it's a mall), multiply by however much time you would like, and figure out the total garbage output. Not nice, let me tell you. You may choose to ignore and try to cover up all the facts that garbage output is huge out there, but the facts do exist. Ever seen photos of garbage disposal sites? There is one a 10 minute drive outside my city, I've been there. Not nice either. Accept it or ignore it and hope someone else does something about it. Oh I don't disagree that we make quite a large amount of debris. How could you? What I disagree about is the impact it has. For themost part we aren't choking on our own filth (again parts of Asia are on the other extreme and some of the harbor waters around spain are atrocious but those aren't the rule) The issue of trash disposal is important but We are in no way near filling up the planet with garbage. As big as those trash piles you saw are, the earth is somewhat in a whole nother league. If you really want to have an idea of what "space" is all about drive coast to coast accross the USA. Those enormous trash piles you are worried about will quickly take on a new perspective. I am not saying that we should not recycle and try and be a bit responsible about how we handle our trash. I am saying that the "clear and present danger" it presents is way over stated. It has to be, or the people who depend on that issue for their support, government grants and contracts would not be able to survive. EDIT: I used to eat inorganic fruits and got sick consistently for all my 6 elementary years a while ago. Eating organic foods now for the last 5 years, I can actually feel healthy. Don't tell me this is from sources you can't confirm, I do some research in the topic. You would not like to know what they put in some of their stuff, and yes I practice naturopathic medicine.

What you choose to eat is your choice to make. but to date, no one can show any documented benefits of groups who eat only "organic" sourced foods and the same foods grown in the normal methods. using your own experience can lead to wrong conclusions since your reaction could possibly be due to some specific allergy you have, and that is only one possibility. I eat non-organicly grown straberries, banananas, oranges, and grapes all year round and I have no problems at all...I have lived to be a healthy 40 year old man eating exclusively non-organicly grown foodstuffs and quite a lot of processed food like substances (Kraft Amrican cheese slices being one) I pass my physicals every year, I hike and I have a reletively healthy existance, and I don't pay any extra for "Organicly grown" foods actually I will bet you that more octogenarians have never eaten an organic diet than have [img]smile.gif[/img] Its a choice, and it is your choice to worry about such things.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Suzaku: Going back a few posts to your nature being harsh, that is my point. Nature is thus, and humans are trying to make nature a nice, all clean, all pleasant place. This is a prevailing attitude I don't think even you can deny. We are first off trying to perfect our society, which is one thing that will not occur. A few other posts along the way, you mention garbage amounts being distorted by the government. Not true, I am going to seriously disagree with this one. I work at a small supermarket, and being a cook, one of my sub-jobs at the location is to take down the garbage to the bin of the complex for garbage collection. You ever seen one? The garbage amount is enormous! Presume 3 trips per day of a big roller bin like you see janitors with, 7 days a week. A not very busy week. Multiply by the various food establishments in the entire building(it's a mall), multiply by however much time you would like, and figure out the total garbage output. Not nice, let me tell you. You may choose to ignore and try to cover up all the facts that garbage output is huge out there, but the facts do exist. Ever seen photos of garbage disposal sites? There is one a 10 minute drive outside my city, I've been there. Not nice either. Accept it or ignore it and hope someone else does something about it. EDIT: I used to eat inorganic fruits and got sick consistently for all my 6 elementary years a while ago. Eating organic foods now for the last 5 years, I can actually feel healthy. Don't tell me this is from sources you can't confirm, I do some research in the topic. You would not like to know what they put in some of their stuff, and yes I practice naturopathic medicine.

So?

[The Hierophant]

Magik and Timber Loftis- It's been very interesting reading your debate so far, some very good points raised on both sides. Keep it up (In fact you should open up an official debate over at Pandemonium [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

Suzaku- I'm making a great, big, fat assumption here but have you ever really experienced cultures of differing social values to our own? Or even just tried to live life in your own way, without resorting to the social institutions of your community? If you had you'd probably either a) like it so much that you never came back to consumerdom and thus won't be posting on the forums here with your exemplifcary icon of consumer culture (your PC) b) find it so hard going that you say "f**k this, I'm going back to my hot showers and microwave ovens" c) understand the incredible of diversity of human life (not to mention life in and of itself) and cease your pointless lamenting/bemoaning/complaining and start utilizing your precious lifetime toward making a genuine, beneficial difference within your society instead of just whining about the traits of one particular human culture that you don't like. I really hate getting all ad hominem like this but it grates on my nerves hearing people victimize themselves.

Now, lad, you raise some good points, this is true. Western consumer society could make use of a little more respect toward the ecosystem that sustains it. But condemning every human for being possessed of these traits which you don't quite happen to agree with is both inaccurate and unproductive. Nothing will change if you just point out the negatives without providing a blueprint for accentuating the positive. Homo sapiens sapiens as a species are still in the adolescence of their time on earth, there is much that can and will be done. But don't forget that we really are all different (some to lesser degrees than others). Hunter gatherers are still going strong in certain parts of the world. You don't have to be a consumer. Trust me, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. If we all keep an open mind and work toward understanding ourselves and the world around us (instead of hopelessly dwelling on the negative, or wandering around blissfully ignorant of our own failings) we'll be just fine. Chin up and knuckle down lad [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ 11-07-2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[K T Ong]

Not really surprised by dear uncle MagiK's responses to this thread so far. (Sorry again, I enjoy eye exercises. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) Well, as he said, we're entitled to our respective opinions. *shrugs shoulders*

Nature cold and hostile? I think if that were truly the case, we would have been wiped off the scene long ago.

But to return to the main topic of this thread, my view is neither optimistic nor pessimistic. My view is that we as a species are able to choose to act and conduct ourselves the right way at any time if we want to. We can choose not to attack, kill, and destroy in order to survive. We can choose not to rape the land to live. The only trouble is that often we don't choose, and just run on automatic pilot. Our ability to make things better for ourselves is always there; we merely choose not to exercise this ability.