French Election Results?

Yorick · 03-18-2001, 02:49 PM

Post them here Moiraine. I'd be interested to know what happens.

------------------
A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Moiraine · 03-18-2001, 02:58 PM

Yorick, I will post some informations tomorrow - the first results have been on the air for only 1 hour, some of them are still estimations, so nothing is certain at the moment.
The touchstone are the major towns of Paris, Lyon and Toulouse - they have been traditionally right wing for a very long time, and all three have a good chance to switch side today !
This is interesting to us because these are the last major elections before the presidential election in 2002. So both camps count their forces here.
I will let you know the results as soon as I get them.

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Yorick · 03-18-2001, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moiraine:

I will let you know the results as soon as I get them.

Thanks Moiraine

------------------
A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Moiraine · 03-18-2001, 04:16 PM

So far, Toulouse stays right wing, but Paris AND Lyon switch side to left wing.
(YAY !

I think you had already guessed which side I was, anyway).
Next episode tomorrow ...

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Moiraine · 03-19-2001, 02:06 PM

I didn't forget - I have still a couple of newspapers to read, then I will write a summary later tonight.

------------------

03-19-2001, 02:16 PM

Wahoo
I love the left wing
Communism over fasism

actually if you really think about it Communism is a real good system but imposible to proform due to the egoism that is within people

On my question if you have 3 pieces of bread and you got 2 people next to you litterly starving would you share
Some people even said No
I rather eat more myself and let them Die

------------------

The Legend Master Necromancer
Prince Rikard T'Aranaxz of Natri'x
Clanmaster and Mental Father of the OHF
Ramanish of Neathan'Calith
High Priest and son of the Eternal Phoenix
Lord and General of the Army of the West

AND!!!
Laughing Hyena!!!

Moiraine · 03-19-2001, 05:18 PM

OK, the French elections ... I took some time to listen to the comments and read several newspapers today, and I will try to make a quick summary.

First, a brief summary of the political parties existing in France.

On the left wing, we have (from center to left) :
- The PRG (old name MRG) - quite small party, very close to the center, natural ally of the PS
- The PS (Socialist Party) - created in 1971, now and by far the biggest left wing party, quite moderate
- The Greens - who have been getting more and more votes these last years, but always have difficulties to stay united
- The PC (Communist Party) - what can I say about it, except that it was very strong after WWII and until the 70s and had slowly declined until today
- Several extreme-left parties, not very powerful in fact

On the right wing, we have (from center to right) :
- The UDF - had been in the 70s the biggest right-wing party, quite moderate, and like the PC has slowly declined until today
- The RPR - created by Jacques Chirac on the remains of the Gaullism movement (people referring to the General de Gaulle)
- Two extreme-right partys, the FN and the MNR, this last created recently on a split of the FN

The political system in France is the following : we elect a President for 5 years, whose responsabilities are essentially in foreign politics. We also elect an assembly of deputies for 5 years. The President then chooses a Prime Minister from the majority of the assembly, and then the new Prime Minister chooses his Ministers for his government. The government then proposes new laws, and the assembly of deputies vote the laws. Aside from foreign politics, the Ministers of the government and the assembly of deputies take all the political decisions.

Until a recent referendum (last September), the time span of a President's mandate was 7 years. This meant that the Presidential election was disconnected from the deputies election. Usually, a new President dissolves the existing assembly, and the new assembly resulting from the elections is generally from the same side as the President. So the side of the President has 5 years to govern the country in peace. But the last 2 years of the President's mandate could result in a 'cohabitation' between a President from one side and a government from the other side. We had a cohabitation twice : once during the last 2 years of François Mitterrand's second mandate (1993 - 1995), and another one now, since 1997. Yes, 1997 ! I will tell you why later.

The right-wing parties had constantly governed the country until François Mitterrand was elected President in 1981, allied with the PC under the label "Union of the Left" (the Greens didn't exist at the time). For the first time since WWII, we had a left-wing President ! Mitterrand was reelected once, so he stayed the French President until 1995, when Jacques Chirac was elected. However, the last 2 years of Mitterrand's mandate was a cohabitation between a left-wing President and a right-wing assembly of deputies and government. Jacques Chirac was the Prime Minister, so he was logically elected President in 1995. Then, in 1997, he decided to dissolve the current assembly (which was on his side), which resulted in a new, majoritary left-wing, assembly ! I suppose that he wanted the French people to comfort his position as President ... Anyway, he was compelled to name Lionel Jospin (PS) as Prime Minister, which he still is today.

Lionel Jospin governs the country with an alliance of the 3 parties PS, PC and Greens. Until today, the PC was considered the 2nd political force in this union, even if it was slowly declining. But now ...

The results of yesterday's elections are unexpected. Polls used to say that the government's policy was judged to be good by French people. So the left-wing union expected to get good results from the election.
What heppened is : they won Paris and Lyon, but they lost a great numbers of provincial towns.

Paris and Lyon are the two biggest French cities. Paris had been governed by the left wing since 1870 !

Paris : Jacques Chirac had been mayor of Paris from 1977 to 1995, when he was elected President. Paris was really Chirac's town, he controlled everything, and it was a bit like a Mafia. No, no, I don't say that because I belong to the other political side, just wait. When Jacques Chirac left the city hall, he had his long-time deputy mayor, Jean Tiberi, replace him. All went well, until the RPR (Chirac's party) decided that its next candidate would not be Tiberi, but another member, Philippe Seguin. They expected Tiberi to accept that, he didn't. So a lot of cases began to be 'discovered' by the French justice, involving the RPR gestion of the city : rigged deals (public money given to private companies through overpayed contracts, which companies in return gave money to the RPR), fake electors (elector cards given to RPR members who didn't live in Paris, they had even found a studio where were supposed to live 18 persons !), fake employees (RPR members family, given a salary in exchange of no real job, or employees of the city hall who worked in fact for RPR members or for the RPR party), ...
And ... all of these cases had happened when Chirac was Paris mayor ... So Jean Tiberi was excluded from the RPR, and so he decided to be a candidate to the next elections.
I would have still a lot to say, but basically, with a divided right-wing and a united left-wing, the result was to be expected. Even some right-wing people voted for the PS candidate Bertrand Delanoé, so fed up they were with the personal ambitions of the RPR members.

Lyon : A member of the RPR named Charles Millon had allied himself with the FN several years ago. Of course then, he had been rejected by the local left-wing party. But then these last week the right-wing decided to ally again with him, they wanted to get the FN votes. This displeased the electors, who in return elected a new PS mayor.

However, the left wing lost several important provincial towns. Especially when Ministers were also candidates to be mayors. I guess people didn't want to be governed by a Minister coming from Paris who would keep the two jobs, so they chose a local Mayor. But this is a slap to the government, and an unexpected one at that.
The PC had slowly decreased in influence until now, but today it has lost a number of towns, including the only town of more than 100 000 inhabitants (Nimes). On the contrary, the Greens votes increase, so the 2nd force in the left-wing union is now the Greens instead of the PC.

The racist extreme-right 2 parties, FN and MNR, seem to remain stable, around 10 % of the votes, alas. Note, this doesn't mean 10% of the French people - the abstention rate is quite high, and doesn't seem to decrease much.

Anyway, the analysis that the radio and newspapers seem to do is that unwealthy people, who used to give their votes to the left-wing and especially to the PC, now seem to have turned to the right-wing. The local right-wing, I mean, since where personal ambitions were involved, people voted for the other side.

These elections were local ones. This means that the results are politically significant only in big and medium cities - the mayors of small towns or village are local personnalities, often with no political color, at least they are not elected for their politcal color. Also, the big cities are traditionally more right-wing, while the surrounding suburbian cities are more left-sided, but smaller. This means that no side can know for sure what is the actual tendancy of the whole French people - and the Presidential election is in 2002.

Lionel Jospin will probably have to dissolve his government and name new Ministers - since several of his previous Ministers have been rejected as Mayors. He also will have to readjust the balance between PC and Greens in the left-winf union. And he will have to think hard about the government policy if he wants to win the Presidential election - lean more towards the center or towards the left ?

Jacques Chirac must not be happy at all - as a President, he can't be prosecuted for what happened in Paris when he was mayor - but as soon as he is no more President, he may well be. Add to this that, Tiberi being the previous Mayor, he will probably leave some hot files in the city hall for the new left-wing mayor to find ...

So here it is. Each side lost where it expected to win, won where it expected to lose. Each side will have to position itself between leaning towards the center or towards the extremes. The polls lie. Next episode next year !

And yes, the new Paris Mayor is left-wing (moderate left-wing, but still) and gay ! Hey, Americans, had Clinton be gay, the whole Monica affair would not have happened at all !

This is only a brief summary, though, if you want more, just say it !

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Xanthul · 03-19-2001, 05:32 PM

WHOAAAA !!!!!

------------------

"Let my spells do the dirty work" Ertai, High Sorceror of the Holy Flame

Moiraine · 03-19-2001, 05:36 PM

Thanks, Ertai

, for reading it - took me quite some time to write !

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Stealthy · 03-19-2001, 07:43 PM

Wow Moiraine, I am impressed with your knowledge and understanding of politics, but especially how you manged to explain it clearly in a foreign language! Truly amazing. The political situation in the UK is far more straight forward, as there are only 2 main parties with any serious chance and coalitions very rare. Here the left has moved towards the centre as has the right and frequently have similar goals, but usually prefer to have petty squabbles instead. Our election is probably going to be in May, when Labour, the supposedly Left party, seem certain to win again. The only interesting thing will be by what margin, as it is generally felt it will be reduced since last time. Frankly I am not political, as they all promise much and fulfill little. I suppose I favour the left, but I don't vote the same way every time, but try to vote for the party I believe will be the best for the country, but frequently people here vote for the one that will give them a few pounds more to spend on cigs and booze in the short-turn, rather than considering the long term picture. If we paid politicians on results not promises, I think the world would be a better place and there would be far more money to spend on the rest!

------------------

Never accept an invitation from Wolfgir to a BBQ!

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03-18-2001, 02:49 PM	#1
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	Post them here Moiraine. I'd be interested to know what happens. ------------------ A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

03-18-2001, 02:58 PM	#2
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	Yorick, I will post some informations tomorrow - the first results have been on the air for only 1 hour, some of them are still estimations, so nothing is certain at the moment. The touchstone are the major towns of Paris, Lyon and Toulouse - they have been traditionally right wing for a very long time, and all three have a good chance to switch side today ! This is interesting to us because these are the last major elections before the presidential election in 2002. So both camps count their forces here. I will let you know the results as soon as I get them. ------------------

03-18-2001, 04:16 PM	#4
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	So far, Toulouse stays right wing, but Paris AND Lyon switch side to left wing. (YAY ! I think you had already guessed which side I was, anyway). Next episode tomorrow ... ------------------

03-19-2001, 02:06 PM	#5
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	I didn't forget - I have still a couple of newspapers to read, then I will write a summary later tonight. ------------------

03-19-2001, 02:16 PM	#6
Rikard Guest Posts: n/a	Wahoo I love the left wing Communism over fasism actually if you really think about it Communism is a real good system but imposible to proform due to the egoism that is within people On my question if you have 3 pieces of bread and you got 2 people next to you litterly starving would you share Some people even said No I rather eat more myself and let them Die ------------------ The Legend Master Necromancer Prince Rikard T'Aranaxz of Natri'x Clanmaster and Mental Father of the OHF Ramanish of Neathan'Calith High Priest and son of the Eternal Phoenix Lord and General of the Army of the West AND!!! Laughing Hyena!!!

03-19-2001, 05:18 PM	#7
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	OK, the French elections ... I took some time to listen to the comments and read several newspapers today, and I will try to make a quick summary. First, a brief summary of the political parties existing in France. On the left wing, we have (from center to left) : - The PRG (old name MRG) - quite small party, very close to the center, natural ally of the PS - The PS (Socialist Party) - created in 1971, now and by far the biggest left wing party, quite moderate - The Greens - who have been getting more and more votes these last years, but always have difficulties to stay united - The PC (Communist Party) - what can I say about it, except that it was very strong after WWII and until the 70s and had slowly declined until today - Several extreme-left parties, not very powerful in fact On the right wing, we have (from center to right) : - The UDF - had been in the 70s the biggest right-wing party, quite moderate, and like the PC has slowly declined until today - The RPR - created by Jacques Chirac on the remains of the Gaullism movement (people referring to the General de Gaulle) - Two extreme-right partys, the FN and the MNR, this last created recently on a split of the FN The political system in France is the following : we elect a President for 5 years, whose responsabilities are essentially in foreign politics. We also elect an assembly of deputies for 5 years. The President then chooses a Prime Minister from the majority of the assembly, and then the new Prime Minister chooses his Ministers for his government. The government then proposes new laws, and the assembly of deputies vote the laws. Aside from foreign politics, the Ministers of the government and the assembly of deputies take all the political decisions. Until a recent referendum (last September), the time span of a President's mandate was 7 years. This meant that the Presidential election was disconnected from the deputies election. Usually, a new President dissolves the existing assembly, and the new assembly resulting from the elections is generally from the same side as the President. So the side of the President has 5 years to govern the country in peace. But the last 2 years of the President's mandate could result in a 'cohabitation' between a President from one side and a government from the other side. We had a cohabitation twice : once during the last 2 years of François Mitterrand's second mandate (1993 - 1995), and another one now, since 1997. Yes, 1997 ! I will tell you why later. The right-wing parties had constantly governed the country until François Mitterrand was elected President in 1981, allied with the PC under the label "Union of the Left" (the Greens didn't exist at the time). For the first time since WWII, we had a left-wing President ! Mitterrand was reelected once, so he stayed the French President until 1995, when Jacques Chirac was elected. However, the last 2 years of Mitterrand's mandate was a cohabitation between a left-wing President and a right-wing assembly of deputies and government. Jacques Chirac was the Prime Minister, so he was logically elected President in 1995. Then, in 1997, he decided to dissolve the current assembly (which was on his side), which resulted in a new, majoritary left-wing, assembly ! I suppose that he wanted the French people to comfort his position as President ... Anyway, he was compelled to name Lionel Jospin (PS) as Prime Minister, which he still is today. Lionel Jospin governs the country with an alliance of the 3 parties PS, PC and Greens. Until today, the PC was considered the 2nd political force in this union, even if it was slowly declining. But now ... The results of yesterday's elections are unexpected. Polls used to say that the government's policy was judged to be good by French people. So the left-wing union expected to get good results from the election. What heppened is : they won Paris and Lyon, but they lost a great numbers of provincial towns. Paris and Lyon are the two biggest French cities. Paris had been governed by the left wing since 1870 ! Paris : Jacques Chirac had been mayor of Paris from 1977 to 1995, when he was elected President. Paris was really Chirac's town, he controlled everything, and it was a bit like a Mafia. No, no, I don't say that because I belong to the other political side, just wait. When Jacques Chirac left the city hall, he had his long-time deputy mayor, Jean Tiberi, replace him. All went well, until the RPR (Chirac's party) decided that its next candidate would not be Tiberi, but another member, Philippe Seguin. They expected Tiberi to accept that, he didn't. So a lot of cases began to be 'discovered' by the French justice, involving the RPR gestion of the city : rigged deals (public money given to private companies through overpayed contracts, which companies in return gave money to the RPR), fake electors (elector cards given to RPR members who didn't live in Paris, they had even found a studio where were supposed to live 18 persons !), fake employees (RPR members family, given a salary in exchange of no real job, or employees of the city hall who worked in fact for RPR members or for the RPR party), ... And ... all of these cases had happened when Chirac was Paris mayor ... So Jean Tiberi was excluded from the RPR, and so he decided to be a candidate to the next elections. I would have still a lot to say, but basically, with a divided right-wing and a united left-wing, the result was to be expected. Even some right-wing people voted for the PS candidate Bertrand Delanoé, so fed up they were with the personal ambitions of the RPR members. Lyon : A member of the RPR named Charles Millon had allied himself with the FN several years ago. Of course then, he had been rejected by the local left-wing party. But then these last week the right-wing decided to ally again with him, they wanted to get the FN votes. This displeased the electors, who in return elected a new PS mayor. However, the left wing lost several important provincial towns. Especially when Ministers were also candidates to be mayors. I guess people didn't want to be governed by a Minister coming from Paris who would keep the two jobs, so they chose a local Mayor. But this is a slap to the government, and an unexpected one at that. The PC had slowly decreased in influence until now, but today it has lost a number of towns, including the only town of more than 100 000 inhabitants (Nimes). On the contrary, the Greens votes increase, so the 2nd force in the left-wing union is now the Greens instead of the PC. The racist extreme-right 2 parties, FN and MNR, seem to remain stable, around 10 % of the votes, alas. Note, this doesn't mean 10% of the French people - the abstention rate is quite high, and doesn't seem to decrease much. Anyway, the analysis that the radio and newspapers seem to do is that unwealthy people, who used to give their votes to the left-wing and especially to the PC, now seem to have turned to the right-wing. The local right-wing, I mean, since where personal ambitions were involved, people voted for the other side. These elections were local ones. This means that the results are politically significant only in big and medium cities - the mayors of small towns or village are local personnalities, often with no political color, at least they are not elected for their politcal color. Also, the big cities are traditionally more right-wing, while the surrounding suburbian cities are more left-sided, but smaller. This means that no side can know for sure what is the actual tendancy of the whole French people - and the Presidential election is in 2002. Lionel Jospin will probably have to dissolve his government and name new Ministers - since several of his previous Ministers have been rejected as Mayors. He also will have to readjust the balance between PC and Greens in the left-winf union. And he will have to think hard about the government policy if he wants to win the Presidential election - lean more towards the center or towards the left ? Jacques Chirac must not be happy at all - as a President, he can't be prosecuted for what happened in Paris when he was mayor - but as soon as he is no more President, he may well be. Add to this that, Tiberi being the previous Mayor, he will probably leave some hot files in the city hall for the new left-wing mayor to find ... So here it is. Each side lost where it expected to win, won where it expected to lose. Each side will have to position itself between leaning towards the center or towards the extremes. The polls lie. Next episode next year ! And yes, the new Paris Mayor is left-wing (moderate left-wing, but still) and gay ! Hey, Americans, had Clinton be gay, the whole Monica affair would not have happened at all ! This is only a brief summary, though, if you want more, just say it ! ------------------

03-19-2001, 05:32 PM	#8
Xanthul Symbol of Cyric Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Outside my place Age: 42 Posts: 1,283	WHOAAAA !!!!! ------------------ "Let my spells do the dirty work" Ertai, High Sorceror of the Holy Flame

03-19-2001, 05:36 PM	#9
Moiraine Anubis Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps Age: 59 Posts: 2,474	Thanks, Ertai , for reading it - took me quite some time to write ! ------------------

03-19-2001, 07:43 PM	#10
Stealthy Avatar Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Dundee in Bonnie Scotland Posts: 543	Wow Moiraine, I am impressed with your knowledge and understanding of politics, but especially how you manged to explain it clearly in a foreign language! Truly amazing. The political situation in the UK is far more straight forward, as there are only 2 main parties with any serious chance and coalitions very rare. Here the left has moved towards the centre as has the right and frequently have similar goals, but usually prefer to have petty squabbles instead. Our election is probably going to be in May, when Labour, the supposedly Left party, seem certain to win again. The only interesting thing will be by what margin, as it is generally felt it will be reduced since last time. Frankly I am not political, as they all promise much and fulfill little. I suppose I favour the left, but I don't vote the same way every time, but try to vote for the party I believe will be the best for the country, but frequently people here vote for the one that will give them a few pounds more to spend on cigs and booze in the short-turn, rather than considering the long term picture. If we paid politicians on results not promises, I think the world would be a better place and there would be far more money to spend on the rest! ------------------ Never accept an invitation from Wolfgir to a BBQ!

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