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Old 08-01-2002, 09:33 AM   #1
DraconisRex
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Understanding the Interrelationship of Offense and Defense in 3E Rules.

2E rules favored offense over defense through the lack of foresight by the creators. Characters were supposed to retire, or go into semi-retirement, by the time they hit the high levels (14th+...) But that didn't happen as we all got attached to our characters...

Offense/defense unbalance ensued, especially with the more unbalanced pro-combat classes, the greatest offender being the Kensai. At moderately high levels, a Kensai couldn't miss (except on a one) the toughest opponent, no matter how powerful the shield and armour and all other defensive modifiers. 3E changed this.

Defense Versus Offense - The Set Up

A young adult Blue Dragon is terrorizing the desert town of Palm Dale. His AC is 26 against medium or smaller creatures. His attack bonuses and damages are:

Bite +23, 2 Claw +18, 2 Wing +18, 1 Tail +18.
2d6 +4, 1d8 +2, 1d6 +2, 1d8 +6.

Two characters answer the call. A lvl 10 ranger & a lvl 10 paladin.

The Ranger: For ease, the ranger did not take dragons as a racial enemy and dual-weilds a +2 longsword with a +2 dagger. He wears +3 studded armour, has a +2 amulet and a +2 cloak with an 15 dex & 15 str. AC = 10+2+6+2+2 = 22. His attacks are: +12/+7 & +12(OH)

The Paladin: +1 Full Plate, +3 Tower Shield, +2 longsword. +2 amulet, +2 cloak. 16 Str, 10 Dex. AC = 10+0+9+6+2+2 = 29. Her atacks are: +15/+10.

Dragon v. Defender

Dragon attacks Ranger Rick

1 Attack at +23 vs AC 22. Needs to roll a 2 or better.
5 Attacks at +18 vs AC 22. Needs to roll a 4 or better.

Average expected damage to Ranger per MR:

Bite = 10
Claws = 11
Wings = 9
Tail = 9

Total = 39

The Dragon attacks Paladin Paula

1 Attack at +23 vs AC 29. Needs to roll a 6 or better.
5 Attacks at +18 vs AC 29: Needs to roll an 11 or better.

Average expected damage to Paladin per MR:

Bite = 8
Claws = 7
Wings = 6
Tail = 6

Total = 29 (10 HPs less damage per MR).

In our example a Ranger would be lucky to last deep, if at all, into the 3rd melee round. The Paladin might make it to the 4th round. except that a dragon can't really bring all those attacks to bear on one a single individual.

Attacker vs Dragon

The ranger attacks as follows:

1 Attack (MH) at +12, needs a 14 or better to hit.
1 Attack (OH) at +12, needs a 14 or better to hit.
1 Attack (MH) at +7, needs a 19 or better to hit.

Expected avg. damage dealt per MR: 6

The paladin attacks as follows:

1 Attack at +15, needs an 11 or better to hit.
1 Attack at +10, needs a 16 or better to hit.

Expected avg. damage dealt per MR: 8

So, what we can see is that defense now plays a far greater role against tough opponents. Dual weilding, while "flashy" and "fun," does not increase the survival chances of a player character against strong opponents.

But that's not fair you say? Take the paladin and dual-weild her (using the feats and cheating to get ambidexterity) in her +1 full plate. She'll die as fast as the ranger. Give the ranger a big shield, he'll survive as long as the paladin.

The Role of Dual-Weilding

There is a legitimate role for dual-weilding. Against numerous, weak foes. At that point, the difference between a 22 AC and a 29 AC won't be as apparent due to the weakness of the opponents attacks. CR1 & CR2 monsters would pose little offensive threat to either the ranger or the paladin.
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Old 08-01-2002, 10:39 AM   #2
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Cool, thanks for the run-down. I still run 2nd edition games, so NWN is my first taste of 3rd ed. rules.
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Old 08-01-2002, 01:23 PM   #3
Tobbin
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Quote:
Originally posted by DraconisRex:
Understanding the Interrelationship of Offense and Defense in 3E Rules.

2E rules favored offense over defense through the lack of foresight by the creators. Characters were supposed to retire, or go into semi-retirement, by the time they hit the high levels (14th+...) But that didn't happen as we all got attached to our characters...

Offense/defense unbalance ensued, especially with the more unbalanced pro-combat classes, the greatest offender being the Kensai. At moderately high levels, a Kensai couldn't miss (except on a one) the toughest opponent, no matter how powerful the shield and armour and all other defensive modifiers. 3E changed this.

Defense Versus Offense - The Set Up

A young adult Blue Dragon is terrorizing the desert town of Palm Dale. His AC is 26 against medium or smaller creatures. His attack bonuses and damages are:

Bite +23, 2 Claw +18, 2 Wing +18, 1 Tail +18.
2d6 +4, 1d8 +2, 1d6 +2, 1d8 +6.

Two characters answer the call. A lvl 10 ranger & a lvl 10 paladin.

The Ranger: For ease, the ranger did not take dragons as a racial enemy and dual-weilds a +2 longsword with a +2 dagger. He wears +3 studded armour, has a +2 amulet and a +2 cloak with an 15 dex & 15 str. AC = 10+2+6+2+2 = 22. His attacks are: +12/+7 & +12(OH)

The Paladin: +1 Full Plate, +3 Tower Shield, +2 longsword. +2 amulet, +2 cloak. 16 Str, 10 Dex. AC = 10+0+9+6+2+2 = 29. Her atacks are: +15/+10.

Dragon v. Defender

Dragon attacks Ranger Rick

1 Attack at +23 vs AC 22. Needs to roll a 2 or better.
5 Attacks at +18 vs AC 22. Needs to roll a 4 or better.

Average expected damage to Ranger per MR:

Bite = 10
Claws = 11
Wings = 9
Tail = 9

Total = 39

The Dragon attacks Paladin Paula

1 Attack at +23 vs AC 29. Needs to roll a 6 or better.
5 Attacks at +18 vs AC 29: Needs to roll an 11 or better.

Average expected damage to Paladin per MR:

Bite = 8
Claws = 7
Wings = 6
Tail = 6

Total = 29 (10 HPs less damage per MR).

In our example a Ranger would be lucky to last deep, if at all, into the 3rd melee round. The Paladin might make it to the 4th round. except that a dragon can't really bring all those attacks to bear on one a single individual.

Attacker vs Dragon

The ranger attacks as follows:

1 Attack (MH) at +12, needs a 14 or better to hit.
1 Attack (OH) at +12, needs a 14 or better to hit.
1 Attack (MH) at +7, needs a 19 or better to hit.

Expected avg. damage dealt per MR: 6

The paladin attacks as follows:

1 Attack at +15, needs an 11 or better to hit.
1 Attack at +10, needs a 16 or better to hit.

Expected avg. damage dealt per MR: 8

So, what we can see is that defense now plays a far greater role against tough opponents. Dual weilding, while "flashy" and "fun," does not increase the survival chances of a player character against strong opponents.

But that's not fair you say? Take the paladin and dual-weild her (using the feats and cheating to get ambidexterity) in her +1 full plate. She'll die as fast as the ranger. Give the ranger a big shield, he'll survive as long as the paladin.

The Role of Dual-Weilding

There is a legitimate role for dual-weilding. Against numerous, weak foes. At that point, the difference between a 22 AC and a 29 AC won't be as apparent due to the weakness of the opponents attacks. CR1 & CR2 monsters would pose little offensive threat to either the ranger or the paladin.
The numbers look pretty good, but my 9th level Ranger has 29 AC, just like the Paladin. Plus, I have improved dual with ambidexterity which lessens the penalties significantly. With a shield, I have 34 AC, so I can give you that. My main problem is that high level enemies are more than likely going to hit my character anyways (whether I have 29 or 34 AC), so I prefer to "get in" more damage to take him out. I can always use potions to beef me up or use boots of striding to raise hp's (I am using boots of speed to help with AC though). Just depends on how you play. I don't know that many characters that will go toe to toe with a dragon (without some heavy beefing). I normally opt for the hit and run mode. I hit them until I get near enough to death it's worrisome, then run to go heal up. Then come back in and finish the job. Ranged attacks can help out here too (depending on how good you are with your weapons.) A straight out fighter is the best to go toe to toe with an enemy though (unless you have to fight through magic to get to them.)
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Old 08-01-2002, 05:48 PM   #4
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Whoa with all the math work here I'm starting to get dizzy..Maybe had I played D&D in high school I might be an architect now instead of a contractor..
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Old 08-01-2002, 07:26 PM   #5
DraconisRex
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tobbin:
The numbers look pretty good, but my 9th level Ranger has 29 AC, just like the Paladin. Plus, I have improved dual with ambidexterity which lessens the penalties significantly. With a shield, I have 34 AC, so I can give you that. My main problem is that high level enemies are more than likely going to hit my character anyways (whether I have 29 or 34 AC), so I prefer to "get in" more damage to take him out. I can always use potions to beef me up or use boots of striding to raise hp's (I am using boots of speed to help with AC though). Just depends on how you play. I don't know that many characters that will go toe to toe with a dragon (without some heavy beefing). I normally opt for the hit and run mode. I hit them until I get near enough to death it's worrisome, then run to go heal up. Then come back in and finish the job. Ranged attacks can help out here too (depending on how good you are with your weapons.) A straight out fighter is the best to go toe to toe with an enemy though (unless you have to fight through magic to get to them.)
Yeah, but you're missing the point. Were not comparing YOUR ranger to this paladin. We are comparing two approaches to combat by focusing on class paradigms. The "traditional" ranger and the "traditional" paladin.

Your ranger is level 9 and has a 29 AC. YOur ranger had to put all his feats into this duplicate dual-weilding. Put the boots of speed on the Paladin and what's the AC? 34? It's just a parallel shift.

Then give the Paladin Knockdown so he knocks your ranger down. Make him smarter and he gets Disarm so you won't be "dual weilding," you'll be dieing. Lot's of ways to "rig" it so one class "wins," which isn't my point.

I'm not interested in a my brother can beat up your sister type of arguement. Nor am I interested in makeing the comparisons skewed by adding "extra" magic power to make-up for something.

As it was, I gave the ranger the equiv. of the best "light" armor that can be purchased in Chapter 2. I did not do the same for the paladin.

What I am going to do is create two level 10 characters. One focusing on the dual-weild paradigm and one on the sword & shield paradigm. Both fighters. Both will get 250,000 gp. I'll lay them out.
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Old 08-02-2002, 06:57 AM   #6
Tobbin
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Quote:
Originally posted by DraconisRex:
quote:
Originally posted by Tobbin:
The numbers look pretty good, but my 9th level Ranger has 29 AC, just like the Paladin. Plus, I have improved dual with ambidexterity which lessens the penalties significantly. With a shield, I have 34 AC, so I can give you that. My main problem is that high level enemies are more than likely going to hit my character anyways (whether I have 29 or 34 AC), so I prefer to "get in" more damage to take him out. I can always use potions to beef me up or use boots of striding to raise hp's (I am using boots of speed to help with AC though). Just depends on how you play. I don't know that many characters that will go toe to toe with a dragon (without some heavy beefing). I normally opt for the hit and run mode. I hit them until I get near enough to death it's worrisome, then run to go heal up. Then come back in and finish the job. Ranged attacks can help out here too (depending on how good you are with your weapons.) A straight out fighter is the best to go toe to toe with an enemy though (unless you have to fight through magic to get to them.)
Yeah, but you're missing the point. Were not comparing YOUR ranger to this paladin. We are comparing two approaches to combat by focusing on class paradigms. The "traditional" ranger and the "traditional" paladin.

Your ranger is level 9 and has a 29 AC. YOur ranger had to put all his feats into this duplicate dual-weilding. Put the boots of speed on the Paladin and what's the AC? 34? It's just a parallel shift.

Then give the Paladin Knockdown so he knocks your ranger down. Make him smarter and he gets Disarm so you won't be "dual weilding," you'll be dieing. Lot's of ways to "rig" it so one class "wins," which isn't my point.

I'm not interested in a my brother can beat up your sister type of arguement. Nor am I interested in makeing the comparisons skewed by adding "extra" magic power to make-up for something.

As it was, I gave the ranger the equiv. of the best "light" armor that can be purchased in Chapter 2. I did not do the same for the paladin.

What I am going to do is create two level 10 characters. One focusing on the dual-weild paradigm and one on the sword & shield paradigm. Both fighters. Both will get 250,000 gp. I'll lay them out.
[/QUOTE]But see, that's what I was saying too. It doesn't really matter in the long run, because most characters will know their own weaknesses and will compensate in some fashion. As for the dueling abilities, I didn't have to select anything, it was a class skill. What I've been pumping my skills into were mainly thieving abilities or magic abilities. So in essence, that kinda makes my character ineligible in the first place for this discussion. I use Shadow Legion Armor, plus the boots, and now have an AC of 37. So it's all relative. I could have taken a class of fighter just as easily to start getting some of their benefits. As it was, I chose Sorceror. I now have a FAMILIAR (albeit low level), ANIMAL COMPANION (chose the bear), have the ability to either cast SUMMON MONSTER (Level 1), or pull from one of the scrolls that I have (Level 6 SUMMON MONSTER, PHANTASMAL KILLER, SUMMON ELEMENTAL (Greater)), or I can use Polymorph Self. The Summoning spells, plus Familiar & Animal Companion give me 3 other characters to go into battle with whereas the Polymorph spell will allow me to regain hitpoints and gain other attacks. I was just saying that my character tends to hit more often now than before.

EDIT: Oh yeah, just to add in something else too, I don't use potions. Hardly ever really use the scrolls. I do summon the bear more often now, but for the most part, I just go in wading deep. I hardly ever use arrows (or ranged attacks), don't use beefing up spells (like barkskin, bless, aid, whatever). Every once in awhile I will use stealth (I don't have light but can cast it from scrolls so this does not defeat that ability). I get in several sneak attacks because of my Rogue abilities (also did not select this, was given this as a class feat). My character does on the average of 15 - 37 hp of damage per hit (I get more than 1 attack now, so it's not uncommon for a flurry of attacks to pop up with at least 40-50 hps damage per round). I could get away with more if I used scrolls/wands/rods, etc. But I feel confident with where he is now.

DOUBLE EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot one other thing too. I also have a really cool scroll that a straight Ranger/Thief couldn't use without heavy skill point allocation. Since I got 1 level of Sorceror (enabling me to use ALL scrolls - Magic User anyways), I can cast Tenser's Transformation. This 1 spell makes a BIG difference. It effectively DOUBLES my damage (killer sword), makes me tougher (adds at least 70 hps to my character) and makes me faster (getting more attacks). I can see why Sorceror's like it so much. [img]redface.gif[/img] )

TRIPLE EDIT: Sorry about me going off on a tangent there. This detracted from what my point really was. And that is, most characters aren't going to just stay fighting at a dragon without either withdrawing to heal up, or having some form of protection that enables them to be safeguarded against the dragon. I personally prefer dualing, because what I hit dies faster (pretty important against really dangerous foes), whereas using a shield will allow the enemy more attacks against me. Most higher level enemy seem to hit you REGARDLESS of what armor you wear. It's better to go into the fight with that in mind. You tend to last longer (expect some damage and go from there).

[ 08-02-2002, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Tobbin ]
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Old 08-02-2002, 10:23 AM   #7
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Yes, but you're still in a "my dad can beat up your sister" argument. Your character may be maxed and you may be the king of power gamers in a solo-adventure that has drawn some criticism, but that doesn't change anything that I wrote.

And while I'm happy for your lucky find of a pair of boots of speed that I haven't found in C2. Despite bringing 6 test characters through (all legit) and generating a score of Debug characters to test various classes & combinations in the low-intermediate stage of NWN. This unbalanced palcement of an item in this monty-haul campaign doesn't serve as proof.

AC's of epic level personalities in Faerun (Epic Level Handbook):

Elminster - 31
Storm Silverhand - 35
The Simbul - 31
Szazz Tam - 31
Iyraclea - 33
Shuruppak - 36

ACs of epic level personalities in Greyhawk (ELH):

Eclavdra - 32
Lord Robilar - 38

ACs of epic level NPCs (ELH - Level 30 characters):

Barbarian - 33
Bard - 36
Cleric - 35
Druid - 32
Fighter - 41
Monk - 40
Paladin - 41
Ranger - 34 (Of note, as you're 37 w/o a shield)
Rogue - 36
Sorcerer - 33
Wizard - 32

But you're still not seeing the point of the point of the exercise. We're comparing the rules, not a somewhat messed-up Monty-Haul campaign being taken advantage of by someone who has figured out the loopholes. At level 10, in this campaign, you should have acquired enough "gear value" of equipment to be at least level 18. And depending on your luck, level 21 or level 22.

Now, let's look at your character:

Mostly ranger. Some thief so you can "use any item." One level of sorcerer. A big key that one level of sorcerer. It says powergamer. And then in Port Llast you made a whole list of +3 items from those five tomes that were otherwise inaccessable and got this epic-level AC.

And now, by being a powergamer (instead of a role-player), you're arguing with a role-player about the combat system you have intentionally circumvented because the campaign doesn't have DM supervision to keep balanced.

It's okay. It doesn't bother me. You paid the $60, just like me. But your criticisms of my arguement are based on your powergaming, flawed programming and campaign design, not the tradeoffs between DEFENSE and OFFENSE.

[ 08-02-2002, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: DraconisRex ]
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Old 08-02-2002, 10:47 AM   #8
AndyG
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Draconis, I'd like to say you did a great job in this post, laying out the numbers. I knew there was a reason I chose not to dual wield. I've always preferred the sword and shield approach. Even with my rangers, I'll go chain armor and use a longsword and shield.
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Old 08-02-2002, 12:53 PM   #9
Tobbin
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Quote:
Originally posted by DraconisRex:
Yes, but you're still in a "my dad can beat up your sister" argument. Your character may be maxed and you may be the king of power gamers in a solo-adventure that has drawn some criticism, but that doesn't change anything that I wrote.

And while I'm happy for your lucky find of a pair of boots of speed that I haven't found in C2. Despite bringing 6 test characters through (all legit) and generating a score of Debug characters to test various classes & combinations in the low-intermediate stage of NWN. This unbalanced palcement of an item in this monty-haul campaign doesn't serve as proof.

AC's of epic level personalities in Faerun (Epic Level Handbook):

Elminster - 31
Storm Silverhand - 35
The Simbul - 31
Szazz Tam - 31
Iyraclea - 33
Shuruppak - 36

ACs of epic level personalities in Greyhawk (ELH):

Eclavdra - 32
Lord Robilar - 38

ACs of epic level NPCs (ELH - Level 30 characters):

Barbarian - 33
Bard - 36
Cleric - 35
Druid - 32
Fighter - 41
Monk - 40
Paladin - 41
Ranger - 34 (Of note, as you're 37 w/o a shield)
Rogue - 36
Sorcerer - 33
Wizard - 32

But you're still not seeing the point of the point of the exercise. We're comparing the rules, not a somewhat messed-up Monty-Haul campaign being taken advantage of by someone who has figured out the loopholes. At level 10, in this campaign, you should have acquired enough "gear value" of equipment to be at least level 18. And depending on your luck, level 21 or level 22.

Now, let's look at your character:

Mostly ranger. Some thief so you can "use any item." One level of sorcerer. A big key that one level of sorcerer. It says powergamer. And then in Port Llast you made a whole list of +3 items from those five tomes that were otherwise inaccessable and got this epic-level AC.

And now, by being a powergamer (instead of a role-player), you're arguing with a role-player about the combat system you have intentionally circumvented because the campaign doesn't have DM supervision to keep balanced.

It's okay. It doesn't bother me. You paid the $60, just like me. But your criticisms of my arguement are based on your powergaming, flawed programming and campaign design, not the tradeoffs between DEFENSE and OFFENSE.
I guess we will have to agree to dis-agree here, because you are posting on a NWN thread, making me believe you wanted to discuss NWN with your opinions. I am not a powergamer. I always have liked the abilities to dual class through 2nd edition AD&D, and have carried this through to here. I have not tried PnP 3rd edition, so can not make validations based on my experience with that. I have only played NWN which is BASED on 3rd edition. As to the items that I "found", I purchased the boots of speed in the 1st chapter of NWN. It took every cent that I had to get them and I didn't buy a lot until I got to Port Llast where I did BUY the Shadow Legion Armor. I did "find" some of the items though. The +3 Ring of protection I found in Charwood, in the Creator Ruins. I think you are getting less options, because you are not mixing your classes. My Ranger would not have Shadow Legion armour, except that I have Thieving skills. I wouldn't be able to use magic, except that I chose Sorceror. At 20th level, I will have "hurt" myself for powergaming as my abilities will be diluted. But I personally like the 3 classes and expect to continue advancement in them. I was just saying that your reasoning about going up against a dragon was flawed because most characters (unless they are powergamers) will attack and back off so they can attack again.

EDIT: I'm not sure what you mean about tomes. I just started as a sorceror and although I have found a couple (I guess these are what you mean?), I have not created anything from them. Just to let you know that even with my AC as high as it is, you can go higher. I have a +3 ring of protection, but there are +5 rings out there. Also, you can find +5 cloaks and other stuff I haven't found yet. I could "powergame", by creating a module with all the items that I want to find, but I haven't done that, nor do I intend to do so. I will admit that I tried the DM_Client out and I did cast spells from the DM to see what effects they have, I also "took control" of a NPC and a creature that I created via scroll, but I have not ported over any items from that. I'll tell you something else too, it's not just the regular game that is unbalanced either. I play online and tried out the Dark_Rangers_Treasure, and I believe that one to be Monty Haul. I was able to go in, kill everything, and get to the treasure and back out without hardly any fighting. There was +3 equipment of varying sorts there (I did keep a tower shield +3, but left everything else). I have my games set up for enforce legal character too, I would like to add. In any event, I no longer play that module anymore as I feel it to be so unbalanced. Most of my experience/gaming has been online with friends or people that would come into my game. I still haven't passed chapter 2 yet and feel I may raise up too high before the game is completed, but that's ok. I plan to finish playing up the Ranger/Sorceror I started (I've always wanted the Ranger that was promised from 1ST edition. The magic missile casting Ranger. Originally, they had the Ranger gain MAGIC USER spells, not DRUIDIC. The thief class, I originally chose, because TOMI kept getting killed and I couldn't bash the chests (I can now that I am 9th level though.)

[ 08-02-2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Tobbin ]
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Old 08-02-2002, 01:13 PM   #10
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Originally posted by AndyG:
Draconis, I'd like to say you did a great job in this post, laying out the numbers. I knew there was a reason I chose not to dual wield. I've always preferred the sword and shield approach. Even with my rangers, I'll go chain armor and use a longsword and shield.
Don't forget that if you use Chain Mail, you lose Ranger abilities.
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