Thoughts of a contemporary Athiest...

[Oblivion437]

As an Athiest of today's world, and in this country, I feel privelidged. Religion is only encouraged, those that would force it on you are a rare example, even in the fundamentalist town where I live. My kind never really had an easy life, having to stand before religious figures and defend their beliefs, if they won, they died for heresy, if they lost, they converted. During the enlightenment, and in the 19th century school of thinking Pascal's wager came up. He argued that if one were to believe, they had all to gain and none to lose, thus Athiests had none to gain and all to lose. This is, from a perspective, true. However, for me, I wish to die with the most logical truth in my mind. I don't want to be thinking I'm going somewhere, and then not, it just feels too ridiculous for me. My parents were themselves followers of the non-church going sort, in a mix of various protestant religions. If you ask them, they'll say they're protestant, no particualar branch, just they believe in Jesus Christ and think Catholics, Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses are crazy. I believe all organizations built by man, including religion, are inherently corrupt. The more power they have, the more corrupt they grow, just look at the US today, or the Roman Empire or the Roman Catholic Church, all huge, all largely and obviously corrupt. If you would like to debate the existence of any deity, I'm open to using this thread for such, and will get the ball rolling by saying God does not exist. The very nature of the universe contradicts an organized creator. It at least contradicts denial of aliens. Given the sheer size of this universe (average 200,000,000,000 stars per astronomically high number of galaxies), aliens must therefore exist, and easily within this galaxy. Complex or simple, I put my dollar behind that notion. Given what 'God' 'Allah' and 'Yahweh' are supposed to be, I think not that such a God exists in such a universe, where there is so much diversity, so much reality, yet this God only cares for us, or, as some say, we're his 'chosen creations.' If he does exist, and there are aliens capable of the same reasoning, does he tell this to them (note: I say he as In Genesis it says God created Adam in 'his' image, thus God is a man)? Or do they have equally interesting and diverse religious beliefs? Why is God a man? There is asexual life, sexual life, and even life that can do it both ways. Why would the creator and thus logically supreme ruler of the universe be a man, conveniently this creation story was invented in a time when Men were seen as superior to Women, and thus no respected religion would have a female deity, like Paganism, which lost popularity during the middle ages. Well, that's the ball that has been rolled, thus beginneth our discussion of the universe, man's role in it, and other fascinating stuff.

Originally posted by Oblivion437: Well, that's the ball that has been rolled, thus beginneth our discussion of the universe, man's role in it, and other fascinating stuff.[/QB]

Uh-oh

*Puts on Asbestos underwear*

(nice post though, thoughtful and with good points, but don't bother, you'll never convince anyone here)

[Neb]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Oblivion437: Well, that's the ball that has been rolled, thus beginneth our discussion of the universe, man's role in it, and other fascinating stuff.

Uh-oh

*Puts on Asbestos underwear*

(nice post though, thoughtful and with good points, but don't bother, you'll never convince anyone here)[/QB][/QUOTE]And he'll probably also be met with countless wishes that he begins believing in God since it will make his life better....

Nice post. Let's hope that it heralds the beginning of an informed and civilized discussion.

[Spelca]

For now I'll just write two quotes which I think are rather nice and fit this topic:

The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. (Joseph Joubert)

----------

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. (Stephen F. Roberts)



[ 06-19-2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

[andrewas]

I have no opinion on whether or not god exists.

I certainly dont believe he exists in the form described by any religion - most of them justify their beliefs solely by texts thousands of years old.

And anyone who claims to have been spoken to by god is highly suspect anyway. Even if sometimes its true, human nature says the majority of these prohets are false.

So, since we have no true way of knowing anything about god, not even whether or not he exists, there is no point in following any religion. And even less in going to war over religious arguments.

I reckon people should just follow the common morality most religions contain (dont kill people, dont steal stuff, you know the kind of thing) and if god (or whoever) sees that behaviour as worth rewarding, so be it. I doubt whether being a good person in order to be rewarded afterwords would impress the bloke anyway.

Right, seeing as that post openly disagrees with any and all religions, I think I had better make tracks.

[Sir Mandorallen]

Well personally I am an Antagonist/Atheist. I think that it really depends on my mood. On a good day I will say, sure there most likely is a all-powerful, all-seeing force somewhere, but I don’t think its any of the ones that are worshiped now. And the only way I’m gonna think otherwise is some very good convincing.

However, on most days, I will say. “Religion? No way.” Personally I believe logically that there is no way that could ever happen. So how do I explain all of the empty holes in our creation and the creation of the world around us? Simple I look to science and the proof that lies within. If science hasn’t figured it out yet, they will, and if they don’t then we as humans were never meant to know it in the first place.

If I would believe in a religion, I would believe in something that, to me anyway, made a little more sense. I could, lets say, believe in the concept that the Romans had. Many gods with each one representing another major part in the world. While I may be able to believe in that, I also can’t believe in the polytheistic religions in our history and in the world today. They are just too illogical and far-flung to me.

Anyway, these are nothing more than the ramblings of my inner thoughts.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: As an Athiest of today's world, and in this country, I feel privelidged. Religion is only encouraged, those that would force it on you are a rare example, even in the fundamentalist town where I live. My kind never really had an easy life, having to stand before religious figures and defend their beliefs, if they won, they died for heresy, if they lost, they converted. During the enlightenment, and in the 19th century school of thinking Pascal's wager came up. He argued that if one were to believe, they had all to gain and none to lose, thus Athiests had none to gain and all to lose. This is, from a perspective, true. However, for me, I wish to die with the most logical truth in my mind. I don't want to be thinking I'm going somewhere, and then not, it just feels too ridiculous for me. My parents were themselves followers of the non-church going sort, in a mix of various protestant religions. If you ask them, they'll say they're protestant, no particualar branch, just they believe in Jesus Christ and think Catholics, Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses are crazy. I believe all organizations built by man, including religion, are inherently corrupt. The more power they have, the more corrupt they grow, just look at the US today, or the Roman Empire or the Roman Catholic Church, all huge, all largely and obviously corrupt. If you would like to debate the existence of any deity, I'm open to using this thread for such, and will get the ball rolling by saying God does not exist. The very nature of the universe contradicts an organized creator. It at least contradicts denial of aliens. Given the sheer size of this universe (average 200,000,000,000 stars per astronomically high number of galaxies), aliens must therefore exist, and easily within this galaxy. Complex or simple, I put my dollar behind that notion. Given what 'God' 'Allah' and 'Yahweh' are supposed to be, I think not that such a God exists in such a universe, where there is so much diversity, so much reality, yet this God only cares for us, or, as some say, we're his 'chosen creations.' If he does exist, and there are aliens capable of the same reasoning, does he tell this to them (note: I say he as In Genesis it says God created Adam in 'his' image, thus God is a man)? Or do they have equally interesting and diverse religious beliefs? Why is God a man? There is asexual life, sexual life, and even life that can do it both ways. Why would the creator and thus logically supreme ruler of the universe be a man, conveniently this creation story was invented in a time when Men were seen as superior to Women, and thus no respected religion would have a female deity, like Paganism, which lost popularity during the middle ages. Well, that's the ball that has been rolled, thus beginneth our discussion of the universe, man's role in it, and other fascinating stuff.

Hi Oblivion - welcome to Ironworks. I have a few questions to ask you:

1) Is the enter button broken on your keyboard or do you deliberately post just one paragraph at a time to make it difficult for us to read it?

2) It's unusual for a newbie to start posting in General Discussions. Are you a member of another board or have you been directed here by another member?

3) Have you ever met Yorrick?

4) What happened to the first 436?

[Oblivion437]

That's my writing style, I always do it seamlessly... Sir Mandorallen directed my here... Not discussed with Yorrick personally, but I've read his posts... I always used 437, it's actually 4.37, which relates to the Heckler and Koch Gewehr 11, which I thought was 4.37MM Caseless, but it's actually 4.73MM caseless.
EDIT: I'm curious about the ranks, how do I find out about them?

[ 06-19-2002, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Oblivion437 ]

[Sir Mandorallen]

Originally posted by Oblivion437: I'm curious about the ranks, how do I find out about them?

Click on the Rules and Regulations on the top of the page and scroll down. [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: I forgot to change my font color!

[ 06-19-2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Sir Mandorallen ]

[Leonis]

Just a couple of comments to give the ball another shove.

As I understand it 'In His image' refers to the concept of the spirit as the core of the being. i.e: self aware entities with free will, emotions, creativity etc...
Also IMO, the God of the Christian Bible is asexual. References to all who enter heaven (male or female) becoming 'brides of christ' and such lead me to believe this. I think it may be more a fault of our current interpretations of our own languages. The 'PC'ifying where all language must be asexual even where the context is gender based. I believe the original texts were understood in the, mankind = male and female, or, son of man = born of human parents, type perspective.
Of course, it has been twisted by many to suit their own, non biblical agenda. to them...

[ 06-19-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Leonis ]