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Old 06-16-2001, 01:16 PM   #31
Neb
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Gaelic, even though both rich and poor people voted for him the rich people get a bigger advantage from him being president than the poor people.
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Old 06-16-2001, 01:20 PM   #32
Gaelic
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neb:
Gaelic, even though both rich and poor people voted for him the rich people get a bigger advantage from him being president than the poor people.
Actually, fewer people get an "advantage" at all. He stands for a more level playing field.



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Old 06-16-2001, 02:12 PM   #33
Billikins the Bold
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I understood that Bush actually got less overall votes in the election than Gore.
I could well be mistaken, but that was what I was led to believe.

As to global warming: well, it has been shown that carbon dioxide emissions *do* have an effect on the environment. Ok, so maybe, and I say *maybe* there are other factors but that does not mean no action should be taken. To use a rough analagy: smoking causes cancer, but its not the only carcinogen... so does that mean that smokings OK and we, as a global society, shouldn't try to reduce the number of people who smoke? Of course not.

Its interesting to note who global warming will have the most impact on: guess who? The citizens of the USA? I think not. Its the third world that has the most to lose from more chaotic weather patterns, but since when has US foreign policy cared for these people? One only has to look at the whole issue of the WTO and banana imports in Europe to see that the bottom line is US business and sod the poor.

Don't get me wrong, I am not "anti-american". I am, however, disgusted and appalled by a lot of post war US foreign policy, which is so self serving and hypocritical that I'm not surprised the US govt oppted out of the recent attempt to set up a world tribunal on war crimes. In all fairness, other govts are equally as culpable: you only have to witness the French secret service and the Rainbow Warrior or the littany of abuses and mistakes of my own govt.

However, as the self appointed and self styled "leader of the free world" and as the biggest consumer (and polluter) in the world, you Americans have to take action. At the moment Bush is seen as a joke in Europe, totally beholden to those who funded him.

Ach, I'm sick of this: people with a devil take the hind most, sod you I'm all right attitude.

Apologies. I know this rant may PO some people, and I know its not the most coherent post in this topic but this is something I care deeply about. I don't want my children to grow up in a world that is slowly disintegrating, with massive movements of refugees from desertified areas, the spread of deseases such as malaria and all the other peripheral effects that seem to be on the cards.

Enough already.

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[This message has been edited by Billikins the Bold (edited 06-16-2001).]
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Old 06-16-2001, 03:49 PM   #34
Gaelic
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1. Bush was elected by the legal method that has elected every president we ever had. THAT is all that matters there.

2. "Screw you" is not the attitude that the US has, nor is it the attitude of the Bush administration. Nor is it my attitude. What Bush and his people have said all along is that as population increases demand will increase for energy in all forms. Conservation will not be sufficient to account for the shortfall. There is a whole division of the US government that works looking for viable renewable resources. My cousin works for it. They have yet to find something financially feasable that is better than nuke power. I'm sorry, but finances must enter the equation. Business won't get into it unless it is profitable. Now, everyone demonizes business for this, but I ask, how many people can a business employ if they are in the business of losing money? The answer is zero. Would anyone here who supports a family enter into an enterprise where you would lose money? I'd imagine not, no matter how altruistic you are. I wonder, was it a "sod off" attitude in foreign policy that sent troops to feed Rwanda after their civil war? What about the part where the US keeps the North Koreans from invading South Korea every day? What about the part where the US maintains a considerable peace-keeping force in the Balkans mainly because our European allies have asked us to? What about part where the US has the most open market for foreign made goods in the world while in place like Japan there is a 200% tarriff on US products? I suppose that is all part of the "sod off" attitude.

3. As for Bush being a "joke" in Europe, that is yet another example of people reading no deeper into a situation than the big print on the front page of the paper. That is where people seem to get their reputation lately. If anyone would read into the situation, they would know what the real story is on the Bush policies, or anything else for that matter. As long as people follow hype and blow off the truth, honest men will have crappy reputations.

4. Once again, I'll not that the British did not sign Kyoto, the French didn't sign, the Canadians didn't sign, and nobody else signed but one country. That's because the treaty didn't make any scientific sense. I don't see anyone else but Bush being demonized for that. I guess he can be a scapegoat for that. It doesn't make it true.



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Old 06-16-2001, 04:38 PM   #35
Billikins the Bold
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Gaelic, this will have to be brief, its Saturday night.

This figure you repeatedly quote of only one country having ratified the Kyoto treaty: where do you get it from? Try 84 countries having signed it and 31 having ratified it, as of 27/11/00. Check the link below if you don't believe me.

http://www.mct.gov.br/clima/ingles/quioto/signata.htm

The EU is committed to ratifying the treaty by 2002 (which calls for a 5.2% reduction from the 1990 CO2 levels by 2008 -2012), while the UK has unilaterally committed itself to a reduction of 20% by 2012.

As to the science, well, the majority consensus is that it is sound. My first degree was in International Politics, specialising in Third World politics and the International Politics of the Environment. As such, I do have some idea about what I'm talking about.

btw, I'm not that bothered how you elect your president, I merely pointed out that I understood he didn't get the msot votes. It was a merely a point of fact. If it rattles you, well, thats your look out.



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Old 06-16-2001, 04:42 PM   #36
Neb
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gaelic:


What Bush and his people have said all along is that as population increases demand will increase for energy in all forms. Conservation will not be sufficient to account for the shortfall.

It would be, if people were good enough at conserving, and the price of electricity was raised a bit.

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Old 06-16-2001, 06:01 PM   #37
Gaelic
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neb:
It would be, if people were good enough at conserving, and the price of electricity was raised a bit.

Learning to do that as a culture takes time, LOTS of time. Maybe 30 to 50 years to truely get that into society. The US is getting there. There are many electricity saving and limiting devices on the market and appliances get more efficient every year. As for the price, Bush's opponents want to put a price cap on electricity. That won't help the environment, or solve the supply problem. However, the mass of people never get past the headlines so Bush looks like the bad guy when he opposes the caps and proposes aid to build modern, more efficient facilities. Hmmmmmm, who are the environmental bad guys here?



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Old 06-16-2001, 06:14 PM   #38
Charean
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Billikins the Bold and Neb - I do agree with you. I have seen how Europeans live and I have seen how Americans live. Americans are wasteful in the extreme. Some of this is because even my mother's generation doesn't understand that resources are FINITE!!

Gaelic, I am sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree on this. I lived in Sicily for 3 years and know we can do better than what we are doing in the States. California for years has learned how to conserve water, why can't the rest of the country recycle, use less fuel and learn to conserve as well? I was born and raised the the DC metro area, believe me - they are really gung-ho about being "politically correct" when it comes to the enviornment. They carpool and use public transit better than any other city, except perhaps NYC. They recycle there (mind you, Minnesota is really good at this as well)... if the bottom line is what you follow, let me ask you - is it cheaper to waste and clean up or just conserve in the first place?

The Kyoto treaty makes a lot of sense. I read it. I would LOVE to see it ratified. I also would LOVE to see power go from large business interests back to the people, but sadly, I don't think that will happen anytime soon.


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Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
Wandering Soul - Finding my life's calling is Bodhisattva
You are what your deep driving desire is; As your deep driving desire is, so is your will; As your will is so is your deed; As your deed is so is your destiny.
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Old 06-16-2001, 06:18 PM   #39
Fljotsdale
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moni:
I haven't replied to this thread because it is one of those areas where discussions between people who otherwise like each other can get heated and people end up getting angry over things that in the end, we are powerless to change without killing the people in charge or buying them out.

Moni

Yeah.... I see what you mean, Moni!


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Old 06-16-2001, 06:26 PM   #40
Moni
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Fljotsdale,
Yes and like I also stated regarding this matter...

I am in no position to do either.


More people should take the small town view on things and realize that we all live in glass houses.

No one can overlook the corruption in our govt' or others but until true power is returned to the people, we can only watch as it all slips through our hands, and do our part to try and keep a hold on it anyway.

Ziroc's quote from George Carlin said it all.


Moni



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