Thought of the day

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Even if you removed the religious element from the picture entirely, the Arabs would have plenty of grounds for grievances against the West.

I think that we should narrow it down. Not all Arabs or muslims have problems with the West. It's only the Fundamentalists that have a real big problem with the West as they see our way of life as a direct threath to their society and religion. We should be careful not to generalize and put blame where it is undue.

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Lemernis: Um, this may seem like a somewhat off the wall observation but I truly hope that the west now seriously starts getting the world economy switched over to some new form of energy like cold fusion so that we can end the political influence that such nations hold over the entire western world. (These terrorists are rich from oil, btw!)

Very good point.

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[J.J.]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: I don't follow you, JJ. How is that "extending Dio's reasoning?" Yes, America is to some extent to blame for the creation of Israel, perhaps as much as any country in the world. The US emerged from World War II as the predominant Western power in the world, and certainly played a major role in its creation and survival. What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is unacceptable by any decent standard of civil liberty and human rights, and the US continues to support Israel. Why then should you be surprised at Arab bitterness towards the US for this? As for whether I am a Chamberlain or a Churchill, it would help if I understood the point of your question, which I'm afraid I do not. Yes, I know who Chamberlain and Churchill were, I just don't see in what sense you are asking the question. Please explain. [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-19-2001).]

The last shall be first, as the book sayeth: Dio, chamberlain is the representation of appeasment of evil. he is infamous for his statement"we have peace in our time." after agreeing with hitler to let him take over the sudentenland in the 1930's, if only he promised not to end up being a nasty person.
Churchill is famous for showing the backbone of the English, and all english speaking countries worldwide, in his unrelenting pursuit of war for the end of eradicating your own culture's enemies, and coining the phrase "iron curtain" to describe the type of society joseph stalin got by roosevelt at the yalta treaty meeting after WWII. if you know who they are, you must know what they did, or the state of your education reflects the influence of the chamberlains who have hijacked US education in the last generation. This war is in no way different. The question is simple - are you a Chamberlain or a Churchill? ask yourself that, knowing what the results of their respective ways of dealing with enemies are. I can even make it simpler for you - if you honestly think that the US is to blame for the attacks upon it, you are a chamberlain.
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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

[This message has been edited by J.J. (edited 09-19-2001).]

[250]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Interesting reading. War? On whom? "The folks that did this" are dead already. They perished at the same moment as they wiped out the lives of so many innocent people. What shall we do now? Hunt down their ghosts? Of course they had accomplices. But they are probably just as keen to die for their cause. So when we find and destroy them, will they not merely thank us? These people are on another wavelength. It is one that we can hardly comprehend. Yet we must comprehend it, urgently. Or we truly will be starting to march up the path to Armageddon. We need, first of all, to see what was driving those killers. It was a hatred of America - plus a sense of total faith in the righteousness of their cause. Now, as we set out to avenge their atrocities, we have to ask what is driving us? In principle, it is spookily similar. Hatred for the terrorists - and a sense of total faith in the righteousness of our cause. HERE are your enemies Mr Bush. HERE are the ancient sources of evil that must be finally conquered if this earth is to survive. Hatred. And total faith in the righteousness of ANY cause. So? In the light of this horror, what will we now set out to do? Shall we strive to consign conflict to history? Shall we try to build a world based on inspiration, celebration and education; humility, tolerance and kindness? Shall we learn to forgive - but not to forget. To understand - but not to excuse. To make allowances - but not to make fools of ourselves? Or shall we all just keep on getting angry? And then just blow each other to kingdom come? Till there's nobody left to blame? -----Jonathan Cainer

the reason why I love life is that we humans do make mistakes, and learn and grow

[Redblueflare]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Interesting reading. War? On whom? "The folks that did this" are dead already. They perished at the same moment as they wiped out the lives of so many innocent people. What shall we do now? Hunt down their ghosts? Of course they had accomplices. But they are probably just as keen to die for their cause. So when we find and destroy them, will they not merely thank us? These people are on another wavelength. It is one that we can hardly comprehend. Yet we must comprehend it, urgently. Or we truly will be starting to march up the path to Armageddon. We need, first of all, to see what was driving those killers. It was a hatred of America - plus a sense of total faith in the righteousness of their cause. Now, as we set out to avenge their atrocities, we have to ask what is driving us? In principle, it is spookily similar. Hatred for the terrorists - and a sense of total faith in the righteousness of our cause. HERE are your enemies Mr Bush. HERE are the ancient sources of evil that must be finally conquered if this earth is to survive. Hatred. And total faith in the righteousness of ANY cause. So? In the light of this horror, what will we now set out to do? Shall we strive to consign conflict to history? Shall we try to build a world based on inspiration, celebration and education; humility, tolerance and kindness? Shall we learn to forgive - but not to forget. To understand - but not to excuse. To make allowances - but not to make fools of ourselves? Or shall we all just keep on getting angry? And then just blow each other to kingdom come? Till there's nobody left to blame? -----Jonathan Cainer

Memnoch I had no idea you're thought of the day was going to be so involving... What Jonahthan said about the accomplices dying for their cause was true. But should we stand by and allow them the chance? Other people have already said if we stand by and do nothing, the terrorists will strike again. And next time they'll strike harder. I'm not saying we should obliterate every country that supports terrorism, but we've got to do something. I don't want to see something like this happen again, and I hope we do whatever it takes to get to the accomplices. You have to go into the sewer to find the rats.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just don't have to listen.

[Parmenion]

Personally i've always felt sorry for Chamberlain. It seems to me that he himself was a decent, sane & reasonable man. And like most People like this he assumes that everyone else was like him.
Basically his only real 'crime' was to mistakenly assume the same of Hitler and that like all reasonable men he would want to avoid war at all costs.

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You ain't seen me! Right?

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Lemernis: But near as I can tell the folks that hate us over there look for anything to hang their hat on with respect to hating the U.S. I'm not sure if anything the U.S. has done justifies the level of pure hatred we have seen. I think we are hated not for what we actually are, or do, but what we represent in their psychology. I am positive of that actually.

I think so many people believe as Lem says above because they are simply unaware of the many serious things the US has done on the international scene. The US is no saint in international affairs, in contrast to its image as the protector of the rights of small countries in American high school history textbooks.

Perhaps we should start a series of history discussions regarding the US and the Middle East. Anybody else care to contribute? What is your understanding of US-Middle East relations in history?