Illinois Death Row Clemency

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: It is one thing to kill innocent men and women in the streets and quite another to execute a criminal.

That's the whole point- to them the people in question are not innocent, to the punishers anyway.[/QUOTE]Precisely. The people executed by China and Saudi Arabia are criminals who break their laws.

Whether the punishment fits the crime is another issue altogether. But when we condemn such a thing, we are placing our values of human rights onto another nation.

Which is what Europe is doing with America re. the death penalty. But then the west also has a problem with China killing Tibetan dissenters. One and the same. Human rights abuse.

[ 01-13-2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Attalus]

But, taking human life is not wrong in some cases. Suppose a criminal broke into your house, and was swinging a knife or pointing a gun at you or a member of your family. You would not be wrong to kill that person. Capital punishment is the State's way of removing people who would do this.

[Yorick]

Now, another important consideration....
This should be a fundamental value in collective human morals:

Every human being has the right to live.

How do we establish such a value? Why does this value get eroded so quickly and by so many?

Murder. Why is it prevalent? War, executions, abortions, slayings massacres, murders, genocide, cannibalism, suicide, scalping. What do all these have in common? The premature termination of human life at human hands.

If we establish a hard line - a zero tolerance policy towards ending human life - surely we will go some way towards ending murder as a considered option in disputes. Genocide as a final solution. Abortion as a convenience. Suicide as an escape.

Human life MUST be held as sacrosanct. Something which NO HUMAN has a right to take away from another human.

In a society with bloodlust , where murder is routinly shown in the arts - often WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE - where taking life is just when used as a punishment by the government, is it any wonder the murder rate is so high? In certain societies, human life is cheap. If there are times when killing is justified, then an individual can justify a killing to themselves.

----------

"Mum and Dad won't let me and my boyfriend be together, so I should kill them, because it's unfair that they keep us apart." Justified? To the Chinese girl sentenced last week in New York it was. To the Judge it was not.

"They may have called the cops and I'd have been caught for this robbery, so it was him or me" Justified? To the robber it is. To society it is not.

"I needed to abort this child because my life will be ruined otherwise." Justified? To some. To others certainly not.

"JFK will ruin the country. By killing him I do my country a service" Justified? To those behind his death it was. To the American people?

"This man committed a heinous crime. He shall get the chair" Justified? To some it is, to the Western community it is not.

---------

By removing ANY justification for taking a human life, we take a huge step towards removing murder from peoples list of acceptable, justifiable options.

This would involve a concerted effort from the arts to depict killing more selectively, and to show the anguish of the perpetrator, the consequences, the victims families, the fatherless children of the "goon" shot by the "hero" so casually.

This would include providing better pallative care for the elderly so euthenasia is not an option. Better couselling and adoption services so young women are aware of all the options and alternatives surrounding the decision to terminate pregnancy. The enforcement of gaol terms and community service for criminals so that there is not the perception of going soft. So that they can go towards repaying society their debt of damage.

Taking human life has to be so foreign a concept, so alien an action option, so ludicrous to comprehension before wars and murders truly decrease.

The proof?

Cannibalism.

How many cultures practice cannibalism now? So prevalent throughout human history, yet now so alien, so repulsive, so foreign, so ABNORMAL to the vast majority of humans thinking.

Let's make humans killing humans equally abnormal.

[ 01-13-2003, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Attalus: But, taking human life is not wrong in some cases. Suppose a criminal broke into your house, and was swinging a knife or pointing a gun at you or a member of your family. You would not be wrong to kill that person. Capital punishment is the State's way of removing people who would do this.

You still commit wrong. You commit wrong to prevent further wrong. But two wrongs don't make a right.

What is legal and what's right are two different things.

Will the mother of the knife swinger not grieve? Will his children not grow up fatherless? Will his brother not lament at how far his sibling fell down? It's not just a threat to your family but a HUMAN BEING. When you decide to protect your family, you choose to destroy someone else.

Is it the correct decision? Certainly for your family it is. Justified, reasonable and logical. Is it not wrong? No.

It creates an outcome that is the "lesser of two evils" for you.

[wellard]

Originally posted by Attalus: But, taking human life is not wrong in some cases. Suppose a criminal broke into your house, and was swinging a knife or pointing a gun at you or a member of your family. You would not be wrong to kill that person. Capital punishment is the State's way of removing people who would do this.

Self defence of yourself and family is a human instinct that is to profound and basic to ever change. the purpose of law is to control these basic instincts to prevent mob rules and blind revenge. However justified the individual case might be, society would crumble imediatly we began to take revenge into our own hands.

[Djinn Raffo]

Remember when Batman was studying Law and a certain case came up where an obviously guilty criminal walked..

Bruce Wayne said to the professor: "But is that Justice?"
Professor replyed: "No Mr. Wayne, that is the Law."

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Yorick: Now, another important consideration.... This should be a fundamental value in collective human morals: Every human being has the right to live.*snip*

I personally think with a slight amendment this would make a great phrase, the amendment being, "Until you forfeit your right through heinous crimes against your fellow man."

among such heinous crimes would be premeditated murder, cuel and unusual murder (ie torture in it's many forms) rape (under the UCMJ - uniform code of military justice - rape can be punished with death) etc...

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Now, another important consideration.... This should be a fundamental value in collective human morals: Every human being has the right to live.*snip*

I personally think with a slight amendment this would make a great phrase, the amendment being, "Until you forfeit your right through heinous crimes against your fellow man."

among such heinous crimes would be premeditated murder, cuel and unusual murder (ie torture in it's many forms) rape (under the UCMJ - uniform code of military justice - rape can be punished with death) etc...[/QUOTE]Of course nevermind the people the endup on death row due to forced confessions, tampered evidence, or sloppy legal representation. Just hang em all and let god sort em out!

[Morgeruat]

that's what the automatic appeal already in place is for

[homer]

The death penalty is justified, or it is not justified. This is what everyone is debating. I do not know how to answer this and make everyone happy. I will submit, no one can.

So what gave Mr. Ryan the right to decide for all of us? Just because he was an elected official? I do not think that all of us who voted for him knew he would perform such an action. Did he mention he might do such a thing when he was running?