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Old 02-09-2005, 12:54 AM   #101
RevRuby
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morgie is my husband
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Old 02-09-2005, 01:02 AM   #102
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Wow, so many couples on Ironworks, its great [img]smile.gif[/img]

I stand corrected in that case, but I'll also stand by my post.

I don't see how its possible to reconcile these two viewpoints (from the same post):

Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
I never once said all muslims are wacko's, nor did I imply that.
Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
I said that Islam teaches hatred, and a greater love of death than life.
The first follows from the second - if Islam teaches hatred and a greater love of death than life, a good Muslim would believe what Islam teaches, and thus claiming that Islam teaches hatred is saying precisely that all good Muslims (at the very least) are taught to hate.

If Morgeraut has looked into this then that is great (and so much more than many others would do) - but I'm still not convinced that his opinions about Islam are valid or justified by 'moderate' evidence.

Edits: Hard to get decent word order. Oh, and just realised I've just spelt Morgeruat wrong about 50 times [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] My apologies...

[ 02-09-2005, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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Old 02-09-2005, 01:11 AM   #103
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a good person is ruled not by what his or her church teaches, but by the golden rule.

[edit] it's ok as mel has so kindly pointed out nathan mis-typed it when signing up in 2001, it is supposed to be morguerat, but i think a few people have taken to calling him morg, or morgie to avoid spelling the mis-typed version

[ 02-09-2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: RevRuby ]
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Old 02-09-2005, 01:18 AM   #104
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Not if you're religious surely...

For example, as a Christian, my sister defines 'bad' as sinning against God and 'good' as following the message that he brought through Jesus. She would hold this religious-based morality above any other rule.

Now all of our cultures are based on Christianity so we don't really notice it, but it would be quite possible for a good Christian to be a bad citizen for example when Christian morals conflict with those of the state.


Excuse my ignorance, but what is the golden rule?

Also, presuming that some other people don't know what it is as well, it seems quite reasonable that (as they are unaware of the golden rule) a 'good' person would turn to their church for moral guidance and therefore be 'ruled' by it?

Edits: Lots again, sorry! It's nearly half 6 here so I need some sleep! If the thread is still alive tomorrow I'll see if I can respond. Thanks for sharing your views and good-night! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-09-2005, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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Old 02-09-2005, 01:38 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
Edits: Lots again, sorry! It's nearly half 6 here so I need some sleep! If the thread is still alive tomorrow I'll see if I can respond. Thanks for sharing your views and good-night! [img]smile.gif[/img]
Yup, and I'm still in work. *sighs*
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Old 02-09-2005, 07:28 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by Morgeruat:
First of all, it's defamation, not slander, nothing I posted is incorrect. It's only defamation (as Timber would say) because it's not publicly known and damages the reputation of the belief system.
IS this a rebuttal to someone else's post?

Quote:

That's why I said read the words, and ask the religious authorities if "a spade is a spade" without making it known you're not muslim, you might be surprised at the message.

Don't take my word for it, and certainly don't believe the press releases, go ask their religious authorities what the correct interpretation is.

besides It's better that "Tim" remain anonymous, speaking out against Mohommad, and apostacy is punishable by death, look at Theo Van Gogh (Nephew to Vincent). (do a google search)
Let's just say I'm a teensy weensy bit sceptic about the validity of this here letter.

I'm well aware that the Quran contains some bloody passages, as do many other religious scriptures, but it's hardly a the most prominent elements in it. Nonetheless, it's something Muslims need to come to terms with. I myself see it a a prime example of religion mixed with power politics. It's difficult to see where one ends and the other begins.

As for the "barbaric death cult" thingie; do you remember Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom? Now THAT'S what I call a barbaric death cult; Islam is far from that.
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Old 02-09-2005, 07:28 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:

Most Southerners really do NOT take as much offense at "red neck scum" as you might think. As John D. pointed out, we actually wear that badge with a bit of pride. Because whenever it is used, it is a clear sign that we have pissed off somebody who disagrees with us and they have nothing left to do but to resort to insulting our heritage. Too bad for them we aren't as ashamed of our heritage as they would like us to be.
ROTFLMAO, it takes years of ta-bacy chewing, pork rine eat'en, and NASCAR watching to de-velope that finely honed skill. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Well heck JD (and Cerek) [img]smile.gif[/img] - credit me with a little intelligence now if you please.

Why do you think I selected my target as the rednecks? I had to be quite particular about what I chose seeing as the thread title decided the two other words that would be going with it. It was because true rednecks are proud of what they are and who they be (and there aint no problem with that), and it had the prospect of broaching on the topic that I was introducing with a touch of comedic input and thus not jarring too many feckles or hackles or whatever [img]smile.gif[/img] . Lets face it, this topic would have gone ballistic if I had used a religuous alternative, and besides, the thread is already too religion based in terms of the TOS.

So no dudes - I aint "pissed" with rednecks. I was making a point which I considered touchy and offensive in a manner in which I hoped would get the point discussed rather than get the thread shut down. To Cerek and JD - I think you guys are quite proud of your country, and I think that although you could manage a "I don't mind it" reply to my hypothetical, you are not really being honest in answering the broader question of tagging countries with insults. Deny it if you will, but having exchanged posts with you guys over many years I think that the topic would get very heated if the boot (re the thread title) was being put in the other way around. For example, a thread about the guards at Abu Ghraib could be titled as "Torturing scum" or it could be titled as the version that has the country. You can say what you will of me, but the fact is that I would be just as down on anyone to remove the American from that second alternative for exactly the same reasons that I have objected to the current title.

Me - I try to treat other countries and peoples the way I would like to see mine treated.

PS : I have one real regret on this threade. I really really really really really really really wish I had NEVER EVER bought up that Achy Breaky Heart song. That has been with me ever since
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Old 02-09-2005, 07:40 AM   #108
RevRuby
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Quote:
Originally posted by shamrock_uk:



Excuse my ignorance, but what is the golden rule?

for those believing in the new testament it is the "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" for witches it would be "an ye harm none do what ye will" not sure of other churches ideas, but as far as i have seen most peacable churches have something to say about not harming others, no others. that is the golden rule.
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Old 02-09-2005, 08:07 AM   #109
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The Ethics of Reciprocity/The Golden Rule is pretty much what RevRuby said, and exist in one form or another in most religions:

Quote:

Some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs:
Bahá'í World Faith:
"Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
"And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
*
Brahmanism: "This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517
*
Buddhism:
"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18
*
Christianity:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
"...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6.
*
Confucianism:
"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
"Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4
*
Ancient Egyptian:
"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 9
*
Hinduism:
"One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4
"This is the sum of the Dharma [duty]: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517
*
Humanism:
"(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
"(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 5
"Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 9
*
Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 6
*
Jainism:
"Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
"In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33
*
Judaism:
"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 8
*
Native American Spirituality:
"Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
*
Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."
*
Shinto: "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
*
Sikhism:
"Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299
*
Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.
*
Taoism:
"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49
*
Unitarian: "We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles.
*
Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede
*
Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
*
Zoroastrianism:
"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29
*
horizontal rule
Some philosophers' statements are:
Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)
*
horizontal rule
Examples from moral/ethical systems are:
Humanism: "...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.
Scientology: "20: Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."
(Slightly edited for a easier read)

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Old 02-09-2005, 08:44 AM   #110
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Shamrock sending my reply via PM, if anyone else wants a copy of what I'm saying just ask, I won't reproduce any replies, only my own statements (or text quoted from the general thread)
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