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Old 07-14-2003, 09:26 PM   #1
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: May 16, 2003
Location: Dartmouth, NS Canada
Age: 58
Posts: 5,634
Ok, I've been running 3 Samurai, 2 Rangers and a Rogue. They're at Lvl 13 now and they are about as impressive as when they started. Their sword, critical, close combat skills are all in the 60's - 70's and they're doing about the same damage as when they were Lvl 1. They do attack more now but I can't say I've ever seen an Instant Kill. The 2 Rangers do get some Instant Kills and I put them at the back so they only shoot. I put put the Rogue in the back with a Double Shot sling. I've been working the Samurai magic hard as well but they just don't impress me. Why does anyone take these guys? Please don't tell me they get better later 'cos at 2.25 million exp. they should be doing way better. I also find their weapons are really limited. How long do you run around with the Wakasashi? I think the Fighters are a better way to go with some pure magic to back them up.
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:53 AM   #2
sultan
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My experience with criticals is fairly similar. They dont show up noticeably until you hit around an 80+ in critical strike, assuming you are equipped with weapons that dont have instant kill.

My wife and I have each played a couple dozen parties of various compositions and have observed that a rogue weilding dual stilletos (10% instant kill) getting 12 attacks aper ound will deal as many instants as, if not more than, a hybrid-instant killer (eg samurai, ninja, ranger) without any instant kill on their weapon.

Of course, put the staff of doom on a samurai or the cane of corpus on your ninja and your results skyrocket, but only well past the half-way point in the game, plot-wise (ie lvl 15+) due to the need for a high critical strike needed to be generally effective.

My point being, if you want criticals, the game provides enough good items (that arent random loads) that can be used by pure, fast-levelling classes (ie. fighter, rogue, bard). So, IMO, critical kill performance is a poor reason to run one of those hybrids

(However, I should add I love the concept of the samurais and often play them for role-playing satisfaction, where the critical strike adds to the samurai "branding".)

Regarding the wakizashi: As far as off-hand weapons go, the samurai gets the worst of the lot. There is only one upgrade, available in a fixed treasure location. However, given how many skills (s)he has to develop, the nicest thing i can say about the wakizashis is that at least they use sword skill (ie you dont have to teach your samurai yet another skill for dagger or staff/wand off-hand weapons).

Re: spell casting, my experience has been that hybrids will never be effective above level 4/5 spells, unless you are doing serious training and/or running past the natural plot end-point. This makes sense: hybrids only get level 7 spells at level 22, and with their slow levelling, rarely get much past that except in a small-party. With that in mind, the strategies for hybrids' spell-casting falls out fairly naturally: low-level, supplementary casting.

For the samurai, this means basic mage buffs (missile shield, enchant blade, and later x-ray) and some decent attacks (area: fireball, iceball, cone: shrill sound, whipping rocks), and even the nice web spell. But their magic will never deliver an overwhelming victory against decent competition. Instead, it just rounds them out.

Which, really, summarises what I'm trying to say about hybrids: they're well-rounded by end-game, good at many things, rather than specialists who are great at rather few things.

This isnt a bad thing. To me, the challenge is building a party from the disparate abilities of the different classes, and testing the bounds of what each class is capable of.

just my two (or ten) cents
sultan

[ 07-15-2003, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]
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Old 07-15-2003, 05:57 AM   #3
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: May 16, 2003
Location: Dartmouth, NS Canada
Age: 58
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Thanks Sultan; and Welcome!
I agree with everything you said. It's just that by the time you get to Lvl 13 with the Samurai, you've done a lot of gaming. Even if the Critical Strike were 1% per Lvl that would be something. Or even having the option with a Samurai or Ranger not to have any magic at all and put some extra skills into combat. I did get their Int. up to max. ASAP since I wanted power cast and the strategy guide recomended this for the Samurai class.
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:38 AM   #4
Wereboar
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 6, 2002
Location: Germany
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If you don't have powercast with a hybrid, his attack spells are quite useless. In my expericence, around level 11 it seems that they might become useful (when you can cast the level 3 spells at a meduim level). But aroud level 13, monster resistances increase a lot, so without powercast its bad again.

You went for powercast. But as a tradeoff, your combat stats are worse. Most important is Strangth fo additional damage and powerstrike, then dex and speed for attacks. Without a haster in your party, and with raising int, your fighting stats will develop very slowly.

I did two powercast hybrid parties. But they were quite weak until level ~18, when they started to become good in both spells and fighting. But for a long time, they are weak in both areas.

Witout going for powercast, and with a charater that can cast haste, you have high strength, dex and speed aroud level 12, and will become quite powerful in melee. Or if you have access to priest spells, you can cast superman on the hybrids to make them good fighters. In your case, you'll need a long time until they are useful.

To the wakazashi: There's one enchanted wakazashi in a fix place, which is great because it uses your primary skill (+25% bonus). If you choose mooks, you even can use an extended weapon as a swap with the same skill. But with more than 1 samurai in a party, you either have to use normal wakazashi, or build up daggers (in additon to spellcasting and nomal fighting). Don't use several samurais again, unless you want a challenge.
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Old 07-15-2003, 05:18 PM   #5
Ziggurat
Symbol of Cyric
 

Join Date: November 4, 2001
Location: Baltimore, Md
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My Samurai has the most kills, but that is because he has Bloodlust. I recently equiped him with a Heater Shield and ditched the Wakazachi +1 sword. Even though it has a kill = 2%, it just didn't do that much. So much for dual weaponing him.

I am getting multiple instant kills per battle, the party is up to level 16 now. The Ninja with Coc, Sam with BL, RFS Monk with Staff of Doom almost always get one. The other Monk with bare hands usually get a knockout or two.

In some battles more than 50% of the enemies were killed by instant kills (for example, 12 out of twenty in a battle at Mt. Gigas).

The Bishop is a poor fighter even with Diamonds Eyes but with his *Light* shield does not get touched much in melee. I think he even had an instant kill or two.

It is true you have to build up strength, dex, close combat, critical, etc., and use the right weapons if you want to build instant kill probability. I gave the Monk a brilliant helm for intelligence boost, did not see a big jump in ability to fight.

Haven't had much success with a Sam or Nin or Mon in spellcasting, just using lower level ones (lev 3 or so).

[ 07-15-2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]
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Old 07-16-2003, 05:59 AM   #6
sultan
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wereboar:
I did two powercast hybrid parties. But they were quite weak until level ~18, when they started to become good in both spells and fighting. But for a long time, they are weak in both areas.
To me, this is really the problem with hybrids. Unless you're running a small party, or intentionally extending play beyond the scope of the plot areas (ie training or wandering for experience), the hybrids spend the majority of the game being a weak contributor, at best, or a liability, at worst.

The bishop would have to be an exception because of the explosion in spell points and casting around level 11 (ie Crock's books become available, powercast is opened, learning in spell books catches up with level).
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Old 07-16-2003, 06:28 AM   #7
Wereboar
Baaz Draconian
 

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Quote:
I gave the Monk a brilliant helm for intelligence boost, did not see a big jump in ability to fight.
Intelligence doesn't improve fighting. AFAIK it doesn't improve spellcasting, too. Only thing it does is a better chance that the relating skills will raise through use. And 100 int grants access to powercast, which is the main point why true spellcasters have to raise it fast.
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Old 07-17-2003, 05:41 AM   #8
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: May 16, 2003
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Well, I stuck a fork in that party! I'm using 2 fighters, 2 bishops (which I usually never take) 1 ranger and 1 rogue; having a good time so far (at about lvl 8)
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:49 PM   #9
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: May 16, 2003
Location: Dartmouth, NS Canada
Age: 58
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I was just having a look at the "Sybex" strategy guide and noticed a couple of interesting Samurai Swords here:

Bushido Blade: 2D10+2(4-22) Kill 5%
Murmasa: 3D8+4 (7-28) Kill 15%
Stinger: 1D6+2 (2-8)

Has anyone seen these swords in the game; I never have?
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:57 PM   #10
ScottG
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Never seen any of them. Murmansa sounds like it would make a Samurai really worthwhile.
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