If I was a powergamer...

[Aerich]

@ Klorox - I was referring to parties intending to start HoF with beginner characters. Dualing at lvl 13 would mean having a low level character in Dragon's Eye or the Severed Hand. In DE, you need everything you can muster on lvl 4 (summoner), and in the SH you have to go up stairs in the towers and be exposed to immediate attacks by archers on your weakest characters. I stand by my points.

Also, note that I did recommend a high level dc F/M for Dave's party, which is intended to go through on normal before going on to HoF. In parties going to HoF, the character building strategy changes, and starting the party on HoF also alters character builds.

@ Ultra Marine - yes, the quantity of higher level spells may make a difference in ease of play for a time. However, at the highest levels, say F/D 22/22 vs 6/30, the spell difference isn't much and the contributions of the fighter side balance out the small spell margin - even if the character primarily uses ranged weapons. Second, I prefer to take the cautious approach in HoF and build my characters with emergencies in mind - a mc F[15]/D[15] is quite a bit better than the dc 6/22 in those critical moments when the character has to tank for a few rounds. It also has a few more HP - I personally wouldn't DC a druid earlier than Fighter lvl 9 for the HP reasons alone, even if playing on normal difficulty (but doing both expansions).

I'm also not that enamoured of high level spells in general, even for the druid - yeah, shamblers and huge earth elementals are great, but they are nothing more than improvements on spells a druid already has. Single-classed, it still takes forever for a druid to get from lvl 13 (750k) to lvl 14 (1500k) - I say wait a little longer and reap the benefits of a comparable level fighter class. In reality, the critical level for a druid is lvl 7, meaning lvl 4 spells. If you have high Wis you'll get a bonus slot anyway for two lvl 4 spells at druid lvl 7, and Static Charge and summons are the major contributions of a druid to any party.

My critique of the dc F/D is mostly for parties intended to go to HoF. The dc is stronger than the mc in the middle levels, but the mc has the advantage at low levels and very high levels. If not going to HoF, the F/D may never advance beyond what I consider the middle levels, so the dc could still be better than the mc at the end of a normal game. HoF requires maximum versatility, but you can specialize roles a bit more in a normal game - ergo a dc druid in a normal game can be essentially a spellcaster. I like my F/Ds to be capable of much more.

[Ultra Marine]

Aerich, Thanks for your input. I'll take that into consideration on my HoF party next time.

[Klorox]

Ahh, but DE level 3 is where you gain yourself TONS of XP, if you're powergaming (and feeling a tad bit sleepy )

[Aerich]

Originally posted by Ultra Marine: Aerich, Thanks for your input. I'll take that into consideration on my HoF party next time.

You're welcome. I'm not saying that a dc druid can't get the job done, just that it's less than optimal in certain situations, such as when the XP is essentially unlimited. A F[13]/D[30] won't be a loss at the end game, far from it, but it can be a pain to develop.

Originally posted by Klorox: Ahh, but DE level 3 is where you gain yourself TONS of XP, if you're powergaming (and feeling a tad bit sleepy )

True enough. Although, even at 7600 XP a pop on HoF, it still takes a lot of cold wights to get yourself up more than a level or so. With a six-character party, it's still 1200 per character per wight. Considering that it could require over 100 000 XP to get to the next level, that's a lot of sitting around.

Edit: quote tags.

[ 02-23-2006, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[Ultra Marine]

I've played in normal/hard/insane and never needed more than 3 fighter classes. The rest could be "utility" classes like bards, t/m or c/t or druids. Essentially, the 3 fighter classes should be:

1) 1st tank -- single pure fig or pal using the best armour/shield/weapons.
2) 2nd tank -- f/m mc or dc with for spells defences.
3) Archer -- the best bow, 2-hand weapons. Could be a ranger or f/t or fmt.

So, for dave's party, it will still work fine but not optimum. Lets start another thread on optimum party for HoF. Anyone interested?

[Aerich]

Sure, go ahead. You can always rely on me to contribute more than my $0.02. Optimum party for doing a normal run first, or optimum party for starting HoF with beginner characters? They are two different kettles of fish...

Although the HoF talk in this thread is somewhat relevant to Dave's party because he wants to go through HoF with the same party.

[Dave G]

Oh please, please! Any talk is relevant in this thread! HoF talk is certainly useful here.

And I'd like to ask a very regressive question now. Suppose one was to powergame using only single class characters (that must be an oxymornon). How would that party look. The reason I ask this is simple: No character can be everything. On the most basic level, certain characters will primarily be doing certain tasks (isn't a MC F/M just an excuse to give our mage better weapons and more HP? He's not running into combat and tanking most of the time!).

[wanderon]

Well the main point of using MCs for HOF would be the premise that more is better...

A single class is capped out at level 30 while a MC can attain level 30 in all classes.

As for the FM not rushing into combat thats really just a playstyle issue. A high level FM certainly COULD put on his eleven chain or just cast mirror image and tensors along with the rest of the party buffs (protection from Evil, Hope, courage, Bless, prayer, chant etc.) and wade into melee with sword and shield and once there toss out some burning hands, or color spray or whatever else he had in his repetoire along with his sword play especially if he was built with melee in mind (decent str/dex/con)... [img]smile.gif[/img]


This HOF talk- is this for starting a party of level 1 characters in HOF or characters that have already completed the game and if the former what equipment should they be allowed to start with?

[ister]

Don't forget shocking grasp. Damage is uncapped, so a high level F/M will so huge damage.

The single class question is an interesting one. Forces some very difficult decisions on a true powergamer. At a minimum I think the power gamer needs a bard, a mage, a cleric, a druid and two warriors. Which leaves no room for a thief. That is how I would do it, but I'm not sure I'd play it out. Not having a thief gives you much better power, but at the cost of all sorts of aggravation.

So my all SC party would be
Paladin (I want the buffs)
Gnome Fighter (helmet and saving throws)
Cleric (can't decide on race. Hate to give up dex for the dwarf, but reluctant to give up wis for the halfling or gnome. Very reluctant to give up saving throws for any other race).
Half Elf Druid
Elf Mage (or maybe gnome)
Half Elf Bard

[Dave G]

This HOF talk- is this for starting a party of level 1 characters in HOF or characters that have already completed the game and if the former what equipment should they be allowed to start with?

Well I intend to play the normal game, then play HoF. But don't limit what you have to say to my plans.

The single class question is an interesting one. Forces some very difficult decisions on a true powergamer.

Yes, yes. That is my point. We can talk endlessly about the various multiclass combinations, but SC really forces you to focus on the build the get the most from the character. I'd imagine quite a few things would drastically change, such as a mage's spell selection.