Guns.

Originally posted by Epona: quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Here in Britain, very few criminals carry guns or many other people for that matter. And the murder rate is much smaller than in the U.S.A, look at the figures, a disarmed populace is a safer populace.

Guns don't commit murder. People commit murder, sometimes using guns, more often using knives or heavy blunt objects. If you think hardly any criminals in the UK carry guns, try living in Hackney.

It is not the availability of guns that causes people to commit murder, it is social and/or mental problems. I have a rack of knives in my kitchen, but having access to them does not make me feel like murdering someone.[/QUOTE]Exactly what I have been trying to say...only you are more eloquent!

Blaming inanimate objects for social or economic problems is totally non-productive and a waste of time. Altho I did recently read in USA today a news article about Wales being one of the top countries for stabbing deaths...so I am guessing it isn't all peachy keen there either.

[ 05-21-2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Epona]

Originally posted by MagiK: Altho I did recently read in USA today a news article about Wales being one of the top countries for stabbing deaths...so I am guessing it isn't all peachy keen there either.

That's true Magik - I would not want to walk around parts of Newport, Wales, on a Friday night after dark. I've been there a few times for work meetings, many of the taxi drivers carry baseball bats under their seats. Hey, that could be dangerous, I think we should ban baseball.

[ 05-21-2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]

[Morgan_Corbesant]

well, there are illegal weapons, illegal drugs, ect., yet criminals still get them with ease. so if you made them all illegal, the ones who would do wrong with them are still going to get them, and those who are deserving and responsible with them, will be left without. i challenge ANYONE who lives where guns are legal to own, to put a sign in your window that reads "GUN FREE HOUSE". i DARE you to do it. ill gaurantee you that you WILL be robbed. the point is, there are PLENTY of people, myself included, that use guns responsibly. they are for hunting, and personal protection. why not get rid of knives, and the like too, crimes are commited with them as well. the point is, without guns, we are not free, IMHO. its our constitutinoal right to bare arms. hell, its the second ammendment. its bad enough that hippies and liberals throughout the country rape the constitution by talking bad about the country, government, and leaders, and claim "freedom of speach". or want to get rid of our only line of defense from "evil" countries, by getting rid of our military. yeah genius, and lets see how many days it takes for some army to march through America because not only do we not have a military, but the people cant own weapons any more. the military that gave America the freedom for the country, and gave us a constitution, is being discredited and hated by those who want to use their "freedom of speach" im sure Bin Laden would let you get away with talking S*** about him and the Taliban. anyway, before i get angry again, ill just finish. the point to all of my rambling is that without guns, we are just sitting ducks. in a "perfect world" there would be no NEED for guns, but this world is FAR from perfect, and until it gets perfect, i own my own pistols, rifles, shotguns, and submachineguns. i wont get rid of them, and i WILL use them if need be. lets see mister "America's military is gone, lets invade them" get accross MY lawn without suffering casualties. i have the know-how to make home-made landmines, etc. im trained by America's greatest fighting force, im Marine Corps. Infantry, and i KNOW why America is free. we are free, because of the constitution, and if you take that away, we lose what made America in the first place. if you dont like the country, move the hell out. those are my views. if you dont live here, then you have NO right to talk about us, unless we endanger you and your's. thank you for listening to my retouric (SP)

[the new JR Jansen]

Originally posted by Epona: quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: Here in Britain, very few criminals carry guns or many other people for that matter. And the murder rate is much smaller than in the U.S.A, look at the figures, a disarmed populace is a safer populace.

Guns don't commit murder. People commit murder, sometimes using guns, more often using knives or heavy blunt objects. If you think hardly any criminals in the UK carry guns, try living in Hackney.

It is not the availability of guns that causes people to commit murder, it is social and/or mental problems. I have a rack of knives in my kitchen, but having access to them does not make me feel like murdering someone. People get stabbed a lot round here, perhaps I should be disarmed 'just in case' and made to chop my vegetables with a butter knife, in case I should suddenly decide to go and stab someone through the neck with my rather nice shiny stainless-steel chefs knife.[/QUOTE]Almost every one that does martial arts will tell you that it is way more easy to defend yourself unarmed against someone with a knife. I would like to see you do that against a gun.
For the record, i have nothing against the tactics the NRA is using, i just don't agree an all of their viewpoints.
And let me toss a oneliner back at you seeing as you used 'Guns don't kill people, people do'. Well chew on this one 'Guns don't die, people do'.
Again, i don't have anything against people defending themselves but the higher powered guns should be outlawed just to make sure no innocent bystanders get hurt. If a normal pistol will do, why then is their a need for a higher powered one. As i have stated before, you don't need a gun that kills over a distance of 100m, your target will mostly not be more then 10m away.

[ 05-21-2002, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: the new JR Jansen ]

[quote]Originally posted by Epona:

Originally posted by MagiK: [qb]I think we should ban baseball.

Statistics show that Baseball is a secret cover for undead bovine worshipers who suck peoples brains and sacrifice virgins!

[img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by the new JR Jansen: i have nothing against the tactics the NRA is using, i just don't agree an all of their viewpoints. And let me toss a oneliner back at you seeing as you used 'Guns don't kill people, people do'. Well chew on this one 'Guns don't die, people do'.

I don't agree eye to ey with the NRA either, but they are no worse than any other politicly active group...and at least they are not fighting for anything that is constitutionally indefensible.

Guns don't die, but they also don't spontaneously hop off the shelf and wander around looking for some poor person to shoot either.

Personally I think Dramnek is just trying to be argumentative [img]smile.gif[/img] he is very good at it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Epona]

Originally posted by MagiK: Statistics show that Baseball is a secret cover for undead bovine worshipers who suck peoples brains and sacrifice virgins! [img]smile.gif[/img]

ROFL!!!! Or perhaps we could let people play baseball as a sport, but they should be made to leave their bats locked up in a safe when they aren't in use. Hey, I've got a big hammer which I keep stashed under my bed 'just in case'. It's one heavy mofo, could kill someone with it if you hit them in the head right, it would make one hell of a mess. I mostly use it for hammering nails into things. Perhaps I should keep that locked up in a safe when not in use, with my 20 traceable nails locked up seperately and checked every so often to make sure I haven't used them. My beautiful Bosch power-drill should probably be kept behind bars too, it's cordless, so the possibilities are endless.

Originally posted by MagiK: The NRA uses their power to subvert the democratic process through lobbying and other such niceties, their commitment to a regressive right wing agenda and their support of that nutcase john ashcroft is very telling.[/QB]

You are saying that lobying...and lobbyists are illegal and not part of the american political process? Im afraid if you look at it that way then there are quite a few bigger worries than the NRA, the NRA is not even close to being the biggest lobby in DC, ever heard of the AFofL CIO? The Teamsters? The Sierra club? The NRA is playing the game by the rules that 40 years of Democratic majority has developed, don't blame them for playing by the oppositions rules.

By the way, there is NO such thing as a Right wing agenda....every group has its own agenda, the right wing is no more organized than any other group of a hundred million or so people, and you can also toss out the BS about the "Vast right wing conspiracy" too.[/QB][/QUOTE]

The whole process of lobbying is an obstacle to true democracy; It allows people with money to gain political influence above and beyond those who do not, thus subverting the whole idea of a democracy.
BTW if you think there is no such thing as right wing agenda, just look at some of the stuff that nutcase loony john ashcroft has tried to get passed, he wants to make it easier to amend the constitution AND he wants to make it illegal to burn the American flag.

Originally posted by MagiK: *snip* [/QB]

In Crime is Not the Problem (1997), Frank Zimring and Gordon Hawkins identified the "use of firearms in assault and robbery as the single environmental feature of American society that is most clearly linked to the extraordinary death rate from interpersonal violence in the United States." Their research led to the conclusion that, "without strategies for the reduction of firearm use in assaults, no policy can be accurately characterized as directed at the reduction of American lethal violence." This study, Saving Lives by Taking Guns Out of Crime, an analysis of FBI crime statistics, presents compelling evidence that implementation of the Brady Law has led to a reduction in the use of firearms in robberies and assaults, preventing thousands of deaths since the law took effect.

In 1994, however, coinciding with the implementation of Brady, the trend reversed and gun-related crime has been dropping faster than the violent crime rate ever since. The Center used this information to estimate the number of lives saved since Brady took effect – not because the crime rate was falling, but because the percentage of violent crimes committed with guns was falling.

The results of this analysis provide compelling evidence that the Brady Law is saving lives by taking guns out of crime: from 1994 through 1998, an estimated 9,368 fewer people died than expected because the percentage of robberies and assaults committed with firearms fell each year after reaching a peak of 42.4% of robberies and 25.1% of aggravated assaults in 1993. Furthermore, from 1991 through 1993, an estimated 3,105 more people lost their lives in gun-related crime than expected because the proportion of assaults and robberies that involved guns increased each year from 1990 through 1993.

More Gun control, means less people die.

Originally posted by MagiK: Statistics show that Baseball is a secret cover for undead bovine worshipers who suck peoples brains and sacrifice virgins! [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB]

Statistics show that:

A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting (4 times), a criminal assault or homicide (7 times), or an attempted or completed suicide (11 times) than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

From 1987-1990, victims used firearms to protect themselves in fewer than one percent of all violent offenses.

The risk of homicide in the home is three times greater in households with guns.