Satanism

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Welcome Dramnek,

Ohh! blue color. Is that the color of disaproval?

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I wondered how long it would be before you showed up here.

Like a moth to a flame, ehh?

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: In answer to your question, YES, I understand that some may view my theology as "harsh". That cannot be helped. I firmly believe everything I say and I will present (and defend) my viewpoint in an appropriate manner. However, if you review this thread, you will see that I am neither disrespectful nor intolerant of those who believe differently. I don't have to agree with someone to respect them. I present my case and they present theirs. I take no offence when someone questions my beliefs in a respectful manner (such as Aviendha did earlier) and I do my best not to offend anybody who disagrees with me.

Ahh, but what is a respectful manner?
It’s heavily dependant on their level of emotive involvement with the points you debate & of course very subjective.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: BTW, I haven't forgotten your Response in the other thread. I simply haven't had time to Respond to it yet. I will try to address it sometime this weekend.

Good for you then, or something.[/QB][/QUOTE]I was starting to think I was the least easy to get along with on this board...Thanks for helping change my mind on that

Originally posted by MagiK: I was starting to think I was the least easy to get along with on this board...Thanks for helping change my mind on that [/QB]

Your statement proves you wrong.
And none of that was meant in a nasty way.
And you’re not supposed to nest quotes.

[Yorick]

Regarding Satanism, I worked in a studio with a Satanist, who would speak of the power a human gains from eating another human. He would glowingly and in detail, speak of ancient Hindu rites involving human sacrifices and subsequent consumption to gain their 'power'.

Put simply, he knew a lot about rituals and their motivations that some here claim don't exist.

I also have a very good friend. A female vocalist I produced, whose childhood sanity was ripped apart, when as a child she was subjected to repeated Satanic rituals of sexual abuse, while tied to a stake, with the approval of her watching father.

She spent her adolescance in escapist drugs and related activities for support, until she sought sanctuary one night in a church.

This started an astounding journey, that ended up with her becoming a Worship Pastor at a huge Australian Church.

When looking at her, and speaking with her you would assume she was from a conservative Christian home, with a 'normal' (what is normal anyway?) background.

Such is the healing power of the Holy Spirit. She is one of the most beautiful, gracious, wonderous women I've ever known.

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: I was starting to think I was the least easy to get along with on this board...Thanks for helping change my mind on that

Your statement proves you wrong.
And none of that was meant in a nasty way.
And you’re not supposed to nest quotes.[/QB][/QUOTE]I dont think so.

It sure looked like you were trying to be annoying

If you show me how not to nest quotes Ill be happy to comply
while your at it, show me how to use colors and Ill play with those too [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Yorick: Regarding Satanism, I worked in a studio with a Satanist, who would speak of the power a human gains from eating another human. He would glowingly and in detail, speak of ancient Hindu rites involving human sacrifices and subsequent consumption to gain their 'power'. Put simply, he knew a lot about rituals and their motivations that some here claim don't exist. I also have a very good friend. A female vocalist I produced, whose childhood sanity was ripped apart, when as a child she was subjected to repeated Satanic rituals of sexual abuse, while tied to a stake, with the approval of her watching father. She spent her adolescance in escapist drugs and related activities for support, until she sought sanctuary one night in a church. This started an astounding journey, that ended up with her becoming a Worship Pastor at a huge Australian Church. When looking at her, and speaking with her you would assume she was from a conservative Christian home, with a 'normal' (what is normal anyway?) background. Such is the healing power of the Holy Spirit. She is one of the most beautiful, gracious, wonderous women I've ever known.

Yorick, what you will be told is that those were Gothic Satanists, while I don't agree with any version of satanism, we can't slip inot the groove of labeling all people with the same label. The stuff these guys are talking about doesnt sound like satanism to me, but they seem to want to choose that title for some reason, wether for the sensationalism of it or some other reason.

Im glad you were able to help that girl.

[Yorick]

I didn't help her. At the time she told me this, she was helping me.

Both her father, and my co-worker called themselves 'Satanists', not 'Gothic Satanists'. I'm not arguing whether they were or not, nor whether all Satanists do that or not. How could I quantify such a statement?

What I am doing is relating firsthand, related information about people I know.

Originally posted by Yorick: I didn't help her. At the time she told me this, she was helping me. Both her father, and my co-worker called themselves 'Satanists', not 'Gothic Satanists'. I'm not arguing whether they were or not, nor whether all Satanists do that or not. How could I quantify such a statement? What I am doing is relating firsthand, related information about people I know.

Got ya [img]smile.gif[/img] No harm ment [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Whether they be Satanists or not, or of any other classification, I have some words which would fit those people rather accurately.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Aviendha

Since I've already let you know that you (and everyone else) is free to question my beliefs publicly, I will get straight to answering your questions from my perspective.

Originally posted by Aviendha: Anyway, my first question is as follows: You say that God is a wonderfully loving Creator, and that he knows our sins before we even commit them. It is Christian’s belief that we are of sinful nature, and that no-one is sinless. Doesn’t this mean that we are destined to sin? Therefore at birth, we are destined to go to hell, and throughout our life he watches us, to see if we will at some stage decide that we will become a Christian! If we do, we are forgiven for the sins that we are destined to commit. If we do not, we will go to Hell. Given that this is the case, you would think that God would give us a real choice.

Yes, Aviendha, Man IS created with an inherently sinful nature. This is the result of Adam and Eve's original transgression being passed down to thier children. However, it does NOT mean we are destined to go to Hell at birth. Infants and children are not held accountable for thier sinful nature because they can't fully comprehend all the implications of that concept. Therefore - until they reach the age of accountability (which varies from child to child) - they are accepted into Heaven purely by God's Holy Grace.

Once they are old enough to understand thier sins, and the consequences of committing them, then God sets a higher standard. They then have to choose whether they will accept or reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as an atonement for their sins. If they do, their sins are wiped clean - totally erased. However, that doesn't mean they are free to "do whatever they want because God will automatically forgive them". It doesn't work that way. If they continue to commit the same sin over and over without repenting, they will be punished for it. But that punishment won't be an eternity in Hell - that is God's last resort punishment. Every single person literally has the opportunity to accept God right up to the time that they draw their last breath.

The thief on the cross gained that type of Holy Pardon of Sin from God. He didn't have a chance to repent, but he recognized his sinful nature and asked Jesus to remember him when He stood before His Father. By acknowledging your sin and sincerely asking God to forgive those sins, you gain an immediate and complete forgiveness for ALL the sins you have committed up to that point.

The way I see it (and correct me if I’m wrong), Christianity is about faith. Wouldn’t a “wonderfully loving Creator” make this eternity based decision a fairly straightforward decision? Wouldn’t he give us continual real evidence of his existence, instead of just giving us a book and relying on us to have faith in his existence? I see myself as a fairly scientific and logical person, one that doesn’t just believe in anything that I am told. Knowing that there would be a plethora of individuals with the same sort of thought process as I, wouldn’t God give us as big a chance as possible to choose what would be the correct path. Simply using a word-of-mouth evangelistic process and a book that quite frankly, is near impossible to decipher, and full of parables, seems a very strange way to go about telling his people about his presence.

The answer here IS straightforward. Christianity DOES require faith and God DOES give us evidence of His existence. But faith has to be in place first before you will attribute the evidence to God. Otherwise, you will ascribe it to natural, scientific processes. God also gives every person ample opportunity to discover His existence. You doubt He exists, but you're willing to listen to my explanation. That is giving you a chance to know Him. Maybe my words will prompt you to "check it out", maybe they won't. But at least the opportunity has been presented.
One quick example I used in another thread of having faith before receiving proof.
When I was little (5-6) my cousin tried to talk me into dropping a plastic glass on the sidewalk in front of her house. I wouldn't because I had broken glasses before and thought she was just trying to get me into trouble. However, she kept promising me the glass wouldn't break. But she would not drop it herself. She said I would just have to trust her. Eventually, curiousity overcame caution and I dropped the glass. By having faith that my cousin wasn't lying, I took a chance and received the proof as a result.

Also, once you accept Jesus Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit, the Bible becomes MUCH easier to understand. Until then, I agree that it is VERY difficult to decipher.

This being the case, it seems reasonable to say, that many people will not come to be Christians throughout their life, not because they are bad people, or people that have decided that they do not want to follow God’s way, but because they simply have not even gained the understanding of what Christianity actually is. God would know that I require this sort of proof of his existence, whereas other people may not. If he was merciful, would he not give it to me, instead of allowing me to go to Hell. If I knew that God existed, I would have absolutely no problem following his word, and dedicating my life to spreading the word.

You are correct that many good people will go to Hell because they choose (for whatever reason) NOT to accept God. Some have decided that the idea of an omnipotent being is simply ludicrous, others say there is no empirical proof of His existence. This is EXACTLY what Satan wants. He WANTS us to question God's existence and to decide that it really is "just a fairy tale" made up long ago to keep people in line. I assure you that nothing is further from the truth. But my assurances alone are not sufficient to prove He exists. That can only be done through personal exploration. You have to decide to seek God on your own. He does love all of us dearly. So much so that He gives us the free will to accept Him or reject Him. He does not FORCE anybody to worship Him. He wants our love and honor to be given to Him freely. And He loves us enough to risk losing those who choose not to accept Him. The loss saddens Him deeply, but He loves us too much to force blind obediance.

I know a ridiculous amount of people who say they believe in the Christian God, but they are not Christians. To me, these people are lying. Anyone in their right mind that believed in Christianity would fear going to Hell, and therefore follow Christianity. Anyway, I’m babbling. My real question is this. If God is all-powerful, and the Creator of all, how did Satan get this much power? Why would he allow it? If we live a perfectly normal life, therefore a sinful one, without making a decision either way, we will go to Hell. Satan does not require us to make any decisions. He does not require us to follow any rules. He does not require us to even think. He certainly doesn’t require us to simply have faith. By default, we are his. In my opinion, this would make the majority of people that have died throughout history, to now be in Hell. This also suggests to me that Satan is more powerful than even God.

To a point, you are again correct. Satan IS extremely powerful. He is one of the 3 original arch-angels (quite possibly the most powerful of the 3). As he found out, though, he is NOT as powerful as God. So now he uses all of his guile and cunning to trick and decieve Mankind into thinking that God doesn't exist (if He did, He would show himself, right?) or that He is really a malevolent being (otherwise, why would He send good and kind people to Hell simply for questioning His existence?). Satan is known as the Lord of Lies for very good reasons. He does not confront God directly anymore. Instead, he uses very subtle measures to lure God's people away from him. He strikes back by "stealing" that which is most precious to God, His children.

If you've ever played AD&D, think of Satan as a high-level thief trying to dethrone a powerful paladin-turned-king that rules the land. Is he going to walk into the throne room and challenge the king to a swordfight. NO. He will almost definitely lose. Instead, he goes throughout the land, spreading rumors of atrocities committed by the king in secret. That he tortures and kills anyone who does not show proper piety. He will sow seeds of dissent among the king's own guard. He doesn't challenge the king directly. Instead he uses lies, rumors, and half-truths to turn the populance against the king, thus robbing him of his power. The people don't even realize they are "attacking" the king. They beleive they are rebelling against a wolf in sheeps clothing.

I could go on, but I better let someone read over this first. I know that you may not read this for a while, so if anyone else wants to discuss this, be my guest. The only other point I will make here, is that you have stated that all one needs to do to get into heaven, is confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. I can do this easily, as I'm sure many have. But surely someone who does this, and then goes and kills 50 people, followed by asking for forgiveness again, will not go to heaven.

That's a very good example. Without reading too much into the question, I will assume you mean the person just goes on a random shooting spree. My answer in this case would have to be NO, that person will NOT get into Heaven because he/she has never accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior to begin with. If they truly were a Christian filled with the Holy Spirit of God, there is NO WAY they could just go out and kill 50 people.

I have ALWAYS considered myself to be Christian. I was raised in a Christian home and I've gone to church since I was a child. HOWEVER, I put off accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior for several years. If I had died before my Salvation, then all of my upbringing and the fact that I was a genuinely "nice" person (by most accounts anyway) would have been for naught. I would STILL have gone to Hell and I would have had nobody to blame but myself. I've known from the age of 14 or so that I SHOULD make that commitment to accept Jesus and serve God, but I didn't actually do it until I was 26. God was VERY gracious to me during that time. I sinned openly without restraint and with no moral dilemmas (nothing bad, mind you, just normal everyday, young-male stuff). Fortunately, God had a purpose for me and He suffered through that period of disobediance to bring me where I am today. The journey has not been easy, but I wouldn't change anything that He has done for me.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: [QB]Aviendha Since I've already let you know that you (and everyone else) is free to question my beliefs publicly, I will get straight to answering your questions from my perspective. Yes, Aviendha, Man IS created with an inherently sinful nature. This is the result of Adam and Eve's original transgression being passed down to thier children. However, it does NOT mean we are destined to go to Hell at birth. Infants and children are not held accountable for thier sinful nature because they can't fully comprehend all the implications of that concept. Therefore - until they reach the age of accountability (which varies from child to child) - they are accepted into Heaven purely by God's Holy Grace. Once they are old enough to understand thier sins, and the consequences of committing them, then God sets a higher standard. They then have to choose whether they will accept or reject the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as an atonement for their sins. If they do, their sins are wiped clean - totally erased. However, that doesn't mean they are free to "do whatever they want because God will automatically forgive them". It doesn't work that way. If they continue to commit the same sin over and over without repenting, they will be punished for it. But that punishment won't be an eternity in Hell - that is God's last resort punishment. Every single person literally has the opportunity to accept God right up to the time that they draw their last breath.

It seems rather cruel of god to create us with the full knowledge that the majority of us will go to hell, does it not?
In fact one could say that, that seems rather a rather perverse and evil thing to do, indeed it seems to go against the whole idea of god being merciful. Indeed it goes against the idea of him being just as well, since he punishes people for something they could not stop from doing since he made them that way, and has full knowledge that most of them will not or cannot be saved by accepting him.
Also if man has an inherently sinful nature, why does god set such high standards for us? Since if we have a sinful nature, we are obviously not capable of reaching them.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: The answer here IS straightforward. Christianity DOES require faith and God DOES give us evidence of His existence. But faith has to be in place first before you will attribute the evidence to God. Otherwise, you will ascribe it to natural, scientific processes. God also gives every person ample opportunity to discover His existence. You doubt He exists, but you're willing to listen to my explanation. That is giving you a chance to know Him. Maybe my words will prompt you to "check it out", maybe they won't. But at least the opportunity has been presented. One quick example I used in another thread of having faith before receiving proof. When I was little (5-6) my cousin tried to talk me into dropping a plastic glass on the sidewalk in front of her house. I wouldn't because I had broken glasses before and thought she was just trying to get me into trouble. However, she kept promising me the glass wouldn't break. But she would not drop it herself. She said I would just have to trust her. Eventually, curiousity overcame caution and I dropped the glass. By having faith that my cousin wasn't lying, I took a chance and received the proof as a result. Also, once you accept Jesus Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit, the Bible becomes MUCH easier to understand. Until then, I agree that it is VERY difficult to decipher.

The problem with that is, that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It needs no external justification, therefore it is unscientific, and yet in this age we base all of our serious knowledge around scientific techniques and/or methods.
So basically what this is asking you to do, is to have double standards, one for religion where you must take it *all* on faith, and one for other articles of knowledge which can either be proved if you really wish to, or proved as part of the process of them becoming knowledge.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: To a point, you are again correct. Satan IS extremely powerful. He is one of the 3 original arch-angels (quite possibly the most powerful of the 3). As he found out, though, he is NOT as powerful as God. So now he uses all of his guile and cunning to trick and decieve Mankind into thinking that God doesn't exist (if He did, He would show himself, right?) or that He is really a malevolent being (otherwise, why would He send good and kind people to Hell simply for questioning His existence?). Satan is known as the Lord of Lies for very good reasons. He does not confront God directly anymore. Instead, he uses very subtle measures to lure God's people away from him. He strikes back by "stealing" that which is most precious to God, His children.

If God is God, he is omnipotent; therefore he could strike down Satan at once, yet he lets him do whatever he likes. Odd no?

If we are gods children and all so special to him, why does he allow the vast majority of us to go to hell, and why did he create us with the flawed natures that make this so? also this is not giveing us free will either, since like a compass turns to magnetic north all the time, so shall we always turn to sin.

[ 05-18-2002, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: Dramnek_Ulk ]