Yorick?

[Yorick]

Fljotsdale, I didn't see you post immediately before the last one. Thanks dear girl

Moridin. I have felt kinship with you since you announced your own issue here. Shared experience is a strong link indeed. I'm wishing you all the best too mate. I thankyou for your thoughts and words brother.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Moridin, I just read your last post. Were you aware that C.S.Lewis was a commited athiest until quite late in life, when he was dragged "kicking and screaming" into the kingdom. So too was prominent New York preacher and motivational speaker H.R.Bernard. If you ever get to hear him do. He is an absolute genius.

Anyhow the point of this is that they were set in their ways, yet changed. Why? Who knows.

I understand some of the moral quandry you face (sort of). When my marriage crumbled I felt like a moral cornerstone of my life had eroded. Marriage was for life I believed, but events made a mockery of that. What did "saving yourself" for a future spouse matter for example? I was already screwed - if you pardon the pun. I felt at a loss. The emphasis here however should be the past tense. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.

It should be noted that most of the edicts in the old testament were for a better, healthier way of living. Pork for example was more prone to going bad, Soldiers had to carry a spade to bury their "waste" and avoid diseases. Humans need rest, so a Sabbath was insisted on etc etc. At the end of the day, I feel no conviction to live the way I do, other than it leads to a happier existance. The path of Jesus for me, is a way to harmony and perceptional enhancement that enables happiness. Happiness is a choice is it not? Choosing to notice the good stuff, rather than focussing on the rarer negatives.

Faith too is a choice. It is choosing to believe something. Believe can and does get stronger and weaker depending on circumstances. I go through periods where I feel alone, or that God might not be there. Then I have periods where I can't imagine ever having a doubt, where I see Gods hand in everything, where I feel his presence tangibly. Faith is the common line that melds the two extremes in a consistant line, so that when belief wanes I search for God. I seek him out. Gods voice is likened to a whisper. He is not about to come and whack you in the head and say "I'm here" (although one could argue aspects of his creation do indeed do that ) My point is that to those that seek him, with an open mind, he makes himself clear and real. If the mind is shut, he will not pry it open. We have been given free will, free choice. We can reject him and he will not change our minds against our will. If we are open to the possibility, he certainly does however. He has with me many a time.

All the best Moridin.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 07-20-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

I know where you're coming from, Moridin. The bible says 'faith is an anchor for the soul' and so it is - but there are other anchors as well!
Tracey made some good points in her last post, or maybe the one previous. She says she is an atheist but cares about other people, is interested in getting along with people of all sorts, cares about the environment, etc, and she seems quite genuine in the way she expressed herself.
Personally, I try to live by the teachings of Jesus - not because I am a believer, but simply because that way of life has proved to be the best way to live, for me. It helps one to be tolerant, compassionate, honest, helpful. It also means caring for the environment, for animal life, etc - much as Tracey does - though I hope I have more tact, lol! - and as Yorick does, though he is a practicing Christian.
It doesn't matter WHAT you believe, really, so long as you live in a way that makes you happy, does no harm, and preferably does enough good that the world is a better place for having you in it!

------------------

Originally posted by tracey: Moni. hiya, nice to hear from you on this thread. i too, am really just reading in..... but feel compelled to chip in every now again. if i could just say that i couldn't give a toss what anyone believes - although, saying that, i do have an acquaintance who borders on being a nazi in his views...

Hiya Tracey, it is the not giving a toss what anyone believes that made your posts seem so negative. You seemed t oborder on being a nazi yourself when it came to arguing your point. It was not my intention to make you angry, but to point out that you are entitled to your beliefs, however, being angry or hostile because someone else does not share the same viewpoint is a bit detrimental. Not just to the arguement but also to yourself. Negativity in any form is a bad bad thing and I apologize if I handed you any with my comment.

Hugs,
Moni

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: O'course not, Moni! We'd only end up throwing things at each other, lol! ... (((hugs)))

LMAO, Fljotsdale! Thank you!
Hugs

Moni

Originally posted by Yorick: Moni, many thanks. Many many thanks for your post. I appreciate it enourmously. God bless you too and thanks again.

You are very very welcome, Yorick!
God Bless You & Yours Always and In All Ways.

Moni



------------------

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Moridin: Anyway, I am sorry to take this away from the original debate topic, but I figured that since Fjlotsdale seems to have called a cease fire on that topic anyway, it was safe to start something different.

Moridin, Yorick wanted to call a halt before I did - I think the news about his ex-wife is far more on his mind at present than this debate! - and we had come to a standoff anyway. (I hate just calling her his ex - I hope he posts her name, as I asked).
Anyway, feel free to discuss anything in here, though a 'belief' topic, like yours, is more appropriate than general chit-chat.

------------------

[tracey]

yorick.

i can barely appreciate how you must be feeling at the moment as i have no experience of what you're going through. however, i'm sure that everyone who knows you is thinking of you and those who do pray are praying for you and your ex-wife. i really hope things are not as bad as they appear at the moment and i too, shall add my own positive thoughts to you both. please keep us posted as to how you are coping - it's really good to talk about situations like this as you will get lots of positive feedback and support. i can't think of anything else to say on the subject as is it so personal to you and i don't want to intrude on your privacy. but........ i do genuinely hope that your faith is sustaining you - i'm sure it is.

my very best wishes.


fljots

cheers bab,

i actually have just found the smilies legend on the side of the screen
i like this smilie best. and i shall be practicing very hard indeed.


moni

i'm not bordering on being a nazi - i am smiling as i write this. i think that an interchange of opinions and beliefs is immensly positive. i would have no idea about the traditions of people in the muslim faith if i didn't debate into the night with my friend naim and his relatives and associated cronies. by the way, in england it is pretty offensive to be described as a nazi in any way shape or form (the war, you know) the absolute horror of that time and it's aftermath was incredibly destructive and close friends of mine lost most of their relatives in auschwitz. in fact, i suppose that the meaning of 'nazi' in europe hasn't changed and isn't ever used in jest. anyway, nazism is basically total intolerance to difference be it racial or otherwise - and that simply isn't true of me. so, i forgive you, you probably have no idea how horrible a term it is here. anyway, i don't really know anything about you - but you seem to be a nice lady. fill me in! we don't have to discuss things that you feel uncomfortable with. i must admit though, that i prefer to talk to people on a reasonably deep level otherwise, i don't feel that i know them at all. i'm not a huge fan of 'small talk' one thing i did pickup from a post somewhere, was that you're going into teaching. i'm thinking of doing the same thing. never thought i would as i really hated school, but oddly, i find imparting knowledge fun and i like stroppy teenagers and i'm told i'm very good with them....... don't know how that happenend! it's actually quite an exciting thought, but unsure if i'll stay the course, so to speak. what's your feeling on the teaching thing? subject, motivation, etc., it would be nice to hear your views as i'm sure your education system differs to some degree.

look foreward to hearing from you. (maybe on a different thread if you fancy setting one up?)p'raps any other teachers or would be teachers would join in.

tracey


moridin

sounds intriguing so far, will get back to the thread asap. but have a busy weekend. so,..... i'm thinking about atheists and their moral codes quite seriously. i'm sure flots has a whole novel to post on this topic.......

[tracey]

yorick.

i can barely appreciate how you must be feeling at the moment as i have no experience of what you're going through. however, i'm sure that everyone who knows you is thinking of you and those who do pray are praying for you and your ex-wife. i really hope things are not as bad as they appear at the moment and i too, shall add my own positive thoughts to you both. please keep us posted as to how you are coping - it's really good to talk about situations like this as you will get lots of positive feedback and support. i can't think of anything else to say on the subject as is it so personal to you and i don't want to intrude on your privacy. but........ i do genuinely hope that your faith is sustaining you - i'm sure it is.

my very best wishes.


fljots

cheers bab,

i actually have just found the smilies legend on the side of the screen
i like this smilie best. and i shall be practicing very hard indeed.


moni

i'm not bordering on being a nazi - i am smiling as i write this. i think that an interchange of opinions and beliefs is immensly positive. i would have no idea about the traditions of people in the muslim faith if i didn't debate into the night with my friend naim and his relatives and associated cronies. by the way, in england it is pretty offensive to be described as a nazi in any way shape or form (the war, you know) the absolute horror of that time and it's aftermath was incredibly destructive and close friends of mine lost most of their relatives in auschwitz. in fact, i suppose that the meaning of 'nazi' in europe hasn't changed and isn't ever used in jest. anyway, nazism is basically total intolerance to difference be it racial or otherwise - and that simply isn't true of me. so, i forgive you, you probably have no idea how horrible a term it is here. anyway, i don't really know anything about you - but you seem to be a nice lady. fill me in! we don't have to discuss things that you feel uncomfortable with. i must admit though, that i prefer to talk to people on a reasonably deep level otherwise, i don't feel that i know them at all. i'm not a huge fan of 'small talk' one thing i did pickup from a post somewhere, was that you're going into teaching. i'm thinking of doing the same thing. never thought i would as i really hated school, but oddly, i find imparting knowledge fun and i like stroppy teenagers and i'm told i'm very good with them....... don't know how that happenend! it's actually quite an exciting thought, but unsure if i'll stay the course, so to speak. what's your feeling on the teaching thing? subject, motivation, etc., it would be nice to hear your views as i'm sure your education system differs to some degree.

look foreward to hearing from you. (maybe on a different thread if you fancy setting one up?)p'raps any other teachers or would be teachers would join in.

tracey


moridin

sounds intriguing so far, will get back to the thread asap. but have a busy weekend. so,..... i'm thinking about atheists and their moral codes quite seriously. i'm sure flots has a whole novel to post on this topic.......

[Zateel]

And on goes the thread... Now I'm one step closer to understanding the concept of Eternity! (pretend I inserted a smiley using colons here)
.

(I, myself, give. I see the lines drawn in the sand and the foxholes wherein each side is emtrenched. As the pages mount, it might appear that the "Christians" believe in the Trinity, and the "Atheists" do not. It seems the "Athiests" believe that being "nice" and obeying *most* of Biblical law is satisfactory and good. Interestingly enough, I have read "Athiests" not condemn religeon, while myself (call me Christian, for debates sake, although perhaps we don't understand the term the same, as in Fljotsdale's example of the colors) have little taste for it at all.
.
I am here to publicly claim ignorance of the nature of God, all the while laughing at the idea that others believe that they understand. If one doesn't believe in God, how would one claim to know "the facts" of what he is? Perhaps in a way that one would understand a character in a book of fiction? Debates are fun to some. Facts, opinions, and statistics are organized and arguments won, but does that mean that the winner of the debate is RIGHT? Perhaps in the trancendentalist world many live in, it is. For a Christian, however, right is right, whether or not the Christian knows it. His thoughts do not control the universe, and he is not the center, God is.
.
Thoughout the debate, whether outrightly mentioned, or egocentrically implied without knowledge of doing so, posters have limited God by time(especially the possibility of free will included within a set destiny), puposes of action (for that poster *knows* why God does what he does, etc.), physical principles (including coexistence and individuality) and personal views of right, wrong, and justice( especially that forgiveness of sin is promised without death PRE Jesus). Who mentioned forgiveness of sin without death pre-flood (bye-bye sinning children). Is it wrong because you think so? Do you understand God's innermost thoughts? To argue within the context of "The Bible" is a great parameter for a debate, but perhaps leaves out (a lot of) truth. To argue outside the Bible gives way to speculation (which this all is anyway- who here has had tea with God one on one, raise his hand). And so, the standoff of "yes it is", "no it isn't" remains.
.
Even if one had *ALL* the knowledge there is, and knew God's most intimate secrets, that would be useless to a Christian in comparison to believing that Christ died without sin, and because of this act we will not be required to, were a choice between the two necessary. I can only speak for myself, so let my definition of a Christian be connotative.
.
I have a small request that Christians not be addressed as "xtians". Christians do not follow "x", and all that the term does is to contribute to inflaming others, as feedback to posts has already shown. If one can write incredibly lengthy posts such as I have read, a few more letters should not fatigue the hand while typing.
.
To restate the point which prompted me to type this, "Why are people using the Bible as a reference tool to ARGUE, when by their own admission they do not believe it?" Let me clarify before the long timers who read my first posts eat me up: I believe that nothing (thematic or principle-wise) in the Bible is wrong, although I did question its place as a sacrosanct mystical holy nessecary part of a Christian, and that it is without error from man. The fact that I believe that flaws exist, that scriptures were chosen by men perhaps injudiciously were we to "recanonize" the Bible or that material relevant to our formation of dogma is missing does not in the least deter me from believing any part of a scripture which I would quote. If one belives it fiction, how can it be used to argue truth?

A believer,

Zateel

Can I get an "Amen" brotha?
"AMEN!"

Excellent points Zateel!

edited to correct the spelling of your name...how did that "r" get in there?! LOL sorry!


Moni

------------------


[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 07-21-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Zateel: To restate the point which prompted me to type this, "Why are people using the Bible as a reference tool to ARGUE, when by their own admission they do not believe it?" Let me clarify before the long timers who read my first posts eat me up: I believe that nothing (thematic or principle-wise) in the Bible is wrong, although I did question its place as a sacrosanct mystical holy nessecary part of a Christian, and that it is without error from man. The fact that I believe that flaws exist, that scriptures were chosen by men perhaps injudiciously were we to "recanonize" the Bible or that material relevant to our formation of dogma is missing does not in the least deter me from believing any part of a scripture which I would quote. If one belives it fiction, how can it be used to argue truth? A believer, Zateel

This bit is obviously a dig at me!
The reasons I can use the bible, Zateel, are these:
1. It is something I am VERY familiar with. (If you have ever studied a text as intensly as I have studied the bible you will know that it is perfectly possible to hold strong views and be able to debate sensibly about either fact or fiction. I know people who have engaged in heated public debate about aspects and meanings in The Lord of the Rings!)
2. I have such a grounding in the bible that when I defend it I believe passionately in it. It is usually only when I stop writing/talking that the non-believer kicks in again - and then I have to edit what I have written, lol!
3. I don't think I ever said that I believe the bible is fiction, anyway. Mainly, I said that I do not APPROVE of the god of the bible - and I have a right to that opinion. It is well-known that the bible is historically accurate and that Jesus was a real person - I have no argument with that. I am even convinced that the Eden story has to be taken as truth by the believer, otherwise the whole structure falls down. Do you, as a Christian, believe that? Most do not.
4. I believe that if we are to discuss ANY book it is necessary to be sure that we are giving an accurate rendering of the contents (I am quite picky about accuracy) - but it is permissible for people to have differing views on what is accurate.
5. Why shouldn't I? Do Christians have a monopoly on the bible?


------------------