NWN 2 level 20

[Stonewarrior]

Along those lines then do you still only play PnP 1st edition rules? It sounds as though you are suggesting anything that goes beyong that is almost blasphemous. The game has expanded. We had 2nd edition, 3rd edition or whatever the hell we are up to.

By your logic we should only play up to level 5, maybe 10. If you have a group you play with only one of them should have a chance to reach level 20...and even then it is farfetched.

I go back to the original question of can you go above level 20 in NWN 2. It was not a question of should we be able to. It was not a question of is it good or bad to go above level 20 in NWN 2. It was merely can we. I offered an alternative which is a much expanded upon version of NWN 1. You do not have to play it, you do not have to play vanila NWN 1 or NWN 2.

Remember, this is a "fantasy" game. There are not wizards and half-orcs and minotaurs running around town. Your version of the how the "fantasy" game should be played obviously differs from how others enjoy playing the game. That does not make you right or us wrong (or vice versa). I do not barge in on threads praising the purity of playing only to level 5 or 10. You might consider showing the same respect to those that wish to take their characters to a higher level.

Peace, John.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Stonewarrior: Along those lines then do you still only play PnP 1st edition rules? It sounds as though you are suggesting anything that goes beyong that is almost blasphemous. The game has expanded. We had 2nd edition, 3rd edition or whatever the hell we are up to.

There is a big difference between the creators changing the official rules and random people doing it.

By your logic we should only play up to level 5, maybe 10. If you have a group you play with only one of them should have a chance to reach level 20...and even then it is farfetched.

Yes, reaching level 20 is farfetched. In pen and paper, it would take you at minimum a year to achieve, and even then it's if you played multiple 4-5 hours sessions a week.

I go back to the original question of can you go above level 20 in NWN 2. It was not a question of should we be able to. It was not a question of is it good or bad to go above level 20 in NWN 2. It was merely can we. I offered an alternative which is a much expanded upon version of NWN 1. You do not have to play it, you do not have to play vanila NWN 1 or NWN 2.

I wouldn't try the off topic card, seeing as you're talking about NWN1 in a NWN2 thread...

Remember, this is a "fantasy" game. There are not wizards and half-orcs and minotaurs running around town. Your version of the how the "fantasy" game should be played obviously differs from how others enjoy playing the game. That does not make you right or us wrong (or vice versa).

Yeah, that make me right, seeing as my version is the official version, and yours is a tampered one.

I do not barge in on threads praising the purity of playing only to level 5 or 10. You might consider showing the same respect to those that wish to take their characters to a higher level.

I have nothing against high level characters. I have something against characters that break the cap around which the whole game is created.

[Stonewarrior]

I am having a hard time keeping a straight face reading this thread. A few hight points...

The creaters v. a few random people - hmm...how about thousands of people playing NWN going up to level 40. You speak of the creaters as some reverent beings. Not everything is best in its original form. Heck, there have been a couple of editions since the 1st edition. Does that invalidate all of them as well?

Taking a year to get to level 20 - If you feel this is the only valid way to play the game then what are you doing reading about a computerized version of a bastardized game? Get some paper, sharpen you pencil and roll the dice.

The off topic card - that is interesting as my rpely was germain to the topic of going over levle 20. NWN 2 presents a limitation in that regard. A limitation not shared by NWN 1 so I was suggesting an altenative. I was not rendering judgement on the validity of the question as you seem intent upon doing.


The official version - again, I find myself chuckling. Do you believe the "official" or "original" version of everything is sacred? If so then why do you both to lower yourself to reading about any version of NWN or game that does not adhere to the official 1st edition rules. This is just comical.

Your prejudice against "tampering" - you wrote "A level 20 character is superhuman. With the right amount of preparation there is nothing he cannot do. In most world there is only a couple handful of these people and everyone has heard of them." To me this suggests you feel the cap of level 20 itself is probably bad and should be near unreachable. It also suggests you feel anything above that goes against the "original" rules. I do not believe level 20 is a high level character so yeah, I guess to me that means you do hae a bias.

If the notion of someone having a good time with a character above level 20 causes you this much grief may I suggest an aspirin for your headache and perhaps a nap? Get over yourself already and let folks enjoy the game the way they want to enjoy it. Do not attempt to lord over others and impose your brand of a game you have such distaste for. Stick with 1st edition PnP and let the rest of us "tamper" to our hearts content. LOL

Peace, John.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Stonewarrior: I am having a hard time keeping a straight face reading this thread. A few hight points... The creaters v. a few random people - hmm...how about thousands of people playing NWN going up to level 40. You speak of the creaters as some reverent beings. Not everything is best in its original form. Heck, there have been a couple of editions since the 1st edition. Does that invalidate all of them as well?

I think you need to re read my posts. The official game does not cap at 20, there's the epic levels after that. So basically, it cap at 40. It's anything over that I have a problem with.

The off topic card - that is interesting as my rpely was germain to the topic of going over levle 20. NWN 2 presents a limitation in that regard. A limitation not shared by NWN 1 so I was suggesting an altenative. I was not rendering judgement on the validity of the question as you seem intent upon doing.

The original poster never asked about an alternative. He want to play NWN2, not NWN1. Otherwise he'd be asking about NWN1.

The official version - again, I find myself chuckling. Do you believe the "official" or "original" version of everything is sacred? If so then why do you both to lower yourself to reading about any version of NWN or game that does not adhere to the official 1st edition rules. This is just comical.

Call me crazy, but I use the official rules when I play chess, I use them when I play sport, I use them when I play billiards. Yeah, I'm strange like that. Oh, and you're the one stuck up on 1st edition, this game is based on third edition so the rules concerned are the third edition ones.

Your prejudice against "tampering" - you wrote "A level 20 character is superhuman. With the right amount of preparation there is nothing he cannot do. In most world there is only a couple handful of these people and everyone has heard of them." To me this suggests you feel the cap of level 20 itself is probably bad and should be near unreachable. It also suggests you feel anything above that goes against the "original" rules. I do not believe level 20 is a high level character so yeah, I guess to me that means you do hae a bias.

Again, re-read my posts. I have no problem against level 20 even or epic characters. I have something against characters that break the rules and spirit of the game. A bias? That's rich. I guess I'm biased at billiards too, because I think you win when you pocket the black ball.

[robertthebard]

That just depends on when you pocket the 8 ball, which is the black ball.

On the subject of creators, the online modules that you can see listed that aren't OC modules were created by people other than the people that created the game. Rules played on servers created by other people use the rules that the people who created the module use. Not every server you see is a Bioware creation, after all. In fact, the servers are hosted by GameSpy. The rules in a CRPG are guidelines. Based on the initial release of the toolset all RPPW's are impossible, and as such should not exist. But people in the community found ways to make PW's happen. The same holds true for "ultra Epic" characters, I suppose. The people that created that module found a way to expand on the system, and they did it. There's nothing wrong with that.

The nice thing about NWN's modules, in either 1 or 2 is that if you don't like the way the rules are implemented, you don't have to play there. I played for a short while on a server that had modified the UMD scripts so much that a bard couldn't cast a spell off a scroll that it had in it's spell book. I posted my comment about it on the message board, and I haven't been back. Well within their right, as the builders, but not what I'm looking to play. Do I have epic chars, you bet ya'. Are some of them munchkins, again, you bet. Are all of my chars that way? Nope. Gets boring.

Recently, I've been busy both building my own module and scripting for another module. I've spent a good part of today studying cutscenes, and how they are made, for the RP PW I've been "hired" to work on. The rules there fit nicely with what would be a classic PnP setting, in fact it is our goal there. My own module, while not really a RP module, is closer to that than the two hack/slash heavy modules I play on. I guess my point is this; I am in the process of making rules for two modules. While they both stay within the current limits of the engine, there is nothing to say that, if the mood swung that way, I couldn't take either one, or both beyond what is currently applicable within the confines of the engine. I'm not breaking the rules if I do, I can't be, since, for both of those servers, I am in on making the rules.

[Luvian]

And to reply to that, I'll just quote myself:

That's not D&D! And you don't need to keep adding big numbers for something to be "fun" or challenging. It's certainly possible to be challenged without breaking the spirit of the game. I'd say there's even more challenge to be had on low level characters that have weaknesses than level godlike characters with +20 items and ridiculous stats.

Seriously, big numbers mean nothing. Why mess up the rules so instead of having for example a level 25 fighting level 25 stuff, you have level 60s fighting level 60s stuff. It's basically the same thing, except with bigger numbers. It doesn't matter if you hit for 5 damage on a 50 hp monster or 50 damage on a 500 hp monster, in both case it's going to take ten hit to kill it.

But in raising those numbers just for the fun of it, you're breaking the spirit of the game. Why not completely remove the level cap while you are at it. Than way you could have level 600 characters doing thousands of damage. Think of the big numbers they'd do! That would be so fun to to 4500 damage per attack, it doesn't matter if it still take 10 hit to kill the monster. It's bigger numbers man! that has to be soo better!

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by Luvian: Seriously, big numbers mean nothing. Why mess up the rules so instead of having for example a level 25 fighting level 25 stuff, you have level 60s fighting level 60s stuff. It's basically the same thing, except with bigger numbers. It doesn't matter if you hit for 5 damage on a 50 hp monster or 50 damage on a 500 hp monster, in both case it's going to take ten hit to kill it.

I believe that this portion touches directly on what has been said. What difference does it make how some people choose to play? If it's overly offensive to you, don't join the game. On the other hand, don't run people into the ground just because their playing style doesn't suit you. You won't be gaming with them anyway. After all, you don't like the way the server is run.

But in raising those numbers just for the fun of it, you're breaking the spirit of the game. Why not completely remove the level cap while you are at it. Than way you could have level 600 characters doing thousands of damage. Think of the big numbers they'd do! That would be so fun to to 4500 damage per attack, it doesn't matter if it still take 10 hit to kill the monster. It's bigger numbers man! that has to be soo better!

Here we are again to the same point. Just for fun. I game for fun, I build for fun, and I script for fun, when they work, anyway. How I have fun is of no concern to you, unless I do so at your expense, say robbing your house, or some other such nonsense. I view this kind of thing much the same way as organizations trying to ban movies, or books because of content. If the content is offensive to you, stay away from it. Other people may enjoy it.

Edit to fix quote tags...

[Luvian]

The problem is, you can keep raising your power level to get bigger numbers, and you'll always feel balanced compared to the raised stuff you're fighting, so you may think raising your power level doesn't affect the balance of the game, but it does.

You're getting overpowered compared to the rest of the stuff you didn't raise. Dragons, that should be close to the top of power chart, are suddenly at the bottom. Kobolds are not even on it anymore, and the kingdom's elite guards, it's ruler, and the royal magician are like kids. Avatars are not even a challenge, etc. THAT's the problem. You want big numbers to boost your ego? Fine, but do it in a way that doesn't unbalance everything. Multiply everything's level by 10 or something. That way you have your big number, you can level as much you want, but really everything is still equal.

This IS D&D. You can create custom content, but don't you think you can do it without spitting on the game you are building on? That's not so hard...

[ 02-27-2007, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[robertthebard]

I'm quite sure that if I build a world with level 60 chars, they will be in areas where they have to be level 60. Things that challenge a level one character are no problem for a level five. So, the level five characters go where they can be challenged. That's balance as well. There's nothing wrong with wanting to maintain balance in a game world, and there's nothing wrong with adjusting the cap of where that balance is struck. Level 60 chars in my module, for example, wouldn't have any fun, but the 20 or so players that were in and out of it a lot while it was up seemed to enjoy themselves, and in the end, that's what every module designer hopes for.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by robertthebard: I'm quite sure that if I build a world with level 60 chars, they will be in areas where they have to be level 60. Things that challenge a level one character are no problem for a level five. So, the level five characters go where they can be challenged. That's balance as well. There's nothing wrong with wanting to maintain balance in a game world, and there's nothing wrong with adjusting the cap of where that balance is struck. Level 60 chars in my module, for example, wouldn't have any fun, but the 20 or so players that were in and out of it a lot while it was up seemed to enjoy themselves, and in the end, that's what every module designer hopes for.

I'm not talking about balance between player and monsters. I'm talking about balance in the world's ecosystem.

First of all, why would level 60 mobs stand around in some dank room all day long? And how did they get to that level if they're just throwaway mobs? Your character is 60, is he standing around all day? No he isn't. He's got allies, he's got artifacts, he's got goals, friend and enemies (EDIT: And more importantly, he's got an history. If there's a level 60 enemy somewhere, you can bet it got a huge history. Irenicus had an History. That Shadow King guy had an history etc. You don't get to the level cap without doing stuff, and characters with history don't just stand around waiting to be killed). It make absolutely no sense to used maxed enemies as fodders. You can't have a dungeon full of them standing around, it's ridiculous.

And if you got a tons of level 60s standing around, why are they not leading the world? Why hasn't one strolled over to Baldur's Gate and singlehandedly killed the Neverwinter Nine, Lord Nasher, and taken over the city? Why aren't the Zentarim taken over by a level 60 guy? Why hasn't a level 60 monster wandered over to that red dragon's lair, killed it, and taken the treasures over?
Why are demon lords and such only level 20 if there's a bunch of level 60 going all over the place? If high levels were so common, you can bet demons would be way more powerful than they currently are. And more importantly, if it was possible to be so powerful, why would the gods' avatars not be too? You can't just raise the level cap, create a bunch of new high level enemies, and expect the world to still make sense or be balanced.

Or are you the only one that's level 60, and everyone still has regular levels? Then why exactly did you become god like? You didn't do anything other heroes haven't done already. If your characters that was level 1 a month ago can get to level 60, then Elmister with all the adventures he got into should logically be level 1000 or so by now. It took Elminster hundred or years of crazy epic adventures to get close to 40...

[ 02-27-2007, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]