Visit the Ironworks Gaming Website Email the Webmaster Graphics Library Rules and Regulations Help Support Ironworks Forum with a Donation to Keep us Online - We rely totally on Donations from members Donation goal Meter

Ironworks Gaming Radio

Ironworks Gaming Forum

Go Back   Ironworks Gaming Forum > Ironworks Gaming Forums > General Discussion > General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-06-2001, 12:43 PM   #11
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
Banned User
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: ...
Posts: 694
Quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Yorick, there have ALWAYS been haves and have-nots. Even among cave-men. Why? Various factors: intellignece, physical fitness, injury; selfishness, greed, kindness, compassion. Nothing new.
What IS new is the scale of the problem - BECAUSE WE HAVE TOO DAMN MUCH POPULATION!!
What's wrong with acknowledging that, Yorick? Is it a religious thing with you?Look. Your own god said 'fill the earth'. OK. What do you do with a container when it is full? YOU STOP PUTTING MORE IN!!
And do you fill a cup of water RIGHT TO THE TOP so that it is slopping out everywhere? NO! You fill it COMFORTABLY full, not BRIM FULL.
Our planet is not yet overpopulated. We CAN feed everyone - we just DON'T. But if we go ON filling the 'cup' we will reach a time when we can't. Who wants to live in an overcrowded, underfed and desperate world with all the resouces used up, just because we don't want to do anything to curb population growth?
Shutting your eyes to something won't make it go away. I've tried it, lol!


I agree with Ms Fljotsdale entirely. Just wanted to jump in to let you know I am following this discussion, but since Ms. Fljotsdale is doing such a good job of expressing my own thoughts, I can just sit back and watch for now
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown is offline  
Old 09-06-2001, 12:43 PM   #12
Avatar
Vampire
 

Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: Cambridge
Age: 40
Posts: 3,877
Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch:
I would have thought that education would be more of a key in resolving this issue. It's the same in third-world countries like the Philippines, where there is NO social security net in place for the impoverished. Families increase the number of children because of lack of education, and in the hope that one of these children will be able to take care of them in their old age.

Yep. Education is the key. It may not be so much to do with social security as in China many farmers and shop owners are prosperious. Sure they are not rich by any standards, but they have more than they can eat, they can afford to eat meat, vege and anything reasonable. They can feed a large family and they think therefore they should have one.



------------------
Avatar is offline  
Old 09-06-2001, 12:56 PM   #13
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
Banned User
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: ...
Posts: 694
Regarding irrigation of deserts (from the other thread):

The problem is that the total amount of water is fixed. One cannot magically make more water appear in the desert. If it is used there, it has to be taken from somewhere else.

This reality behind the theory of turning deserts to bloom has caused tremendous problems in the American west. The Colorado river, for instance, does not flow to the ocean any more -- all the water is taken out by variety of sources, from farmers for irrigation purposes to major cities for the host of uses that a population needs. This situation creates a perpetual state of water crises in the West, with various parties fighting over the same limited resource.

And all because of ecological stupidity on the part of humans. The main lesson to be drawn from studying the water problems of a city the size of Los Angeles and its devastating impact on a vast area is that it should never have been built in the damned desert to begin with.

Diogenes Of Pumpkintown is offline  
Old 09-06-2001, 01:03 PM   #14
Avatar
Vampire
 

Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: Cambridge
Age: 40
Posts: 3,877
I wish we can terraform Should be military service. Everyone must move 1 tonne of earths in their life time.
Tractors help a lot then.

------------------
Avatar is offline  
Old 09-06-2001, 01:28 PM   #15
MagiK
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Good post Yorik Don't agree with all the ideas but the posts you are getting in response aren't taking into account several things.

A. It is impossible to legisltate reproduction. China has tried with ruthless tactics and people still reproduce.

B. Who in gods (or what ever higher power you may ascribe to) name gives ANYONE the right to tell someone they have to stop at 2 kids? (we stopped at 2 of our own accord)

C. Oil is not the bane of the environment people seem to think it is. We are not likely to run out any time soon (see todays headlines about vast new deposits found in china). Any replacement for fossil fuels will have its own costs and toxicities.

D. Barring a total collapse into barbarism I prefer to see a bright future for humans one where we expand beyond this planet to despoil the rest of the solar system of its resources. The resources are there for our taking left unused..they are just a waste.

E. Western cultures don't need a mental shift. It is western culture that has been the leading drive for advances in the last several centuries. Life expectancy and quality of life has exploded due to the so called western cultures.

F. It is easy to pooh pooh society and to condemn it for its abuses...but without it you woldn't have a place or the means to post these messages. Having visited several "undeveloped" countries or lesser developed countries I can tell you the people living in those so called undespoiled lands are living a day to day existing at the mercy of wind weather and nature just to stay alive...I prefer civilization and so do most of them if they have the chance.


This isn't an attak or a hate motivated post. Im just pointing some things out.
If we all got rid of our cars and used horses we would still have pollution, just in another form. I would also like to point out that mass transit is a nice concept and can work, the only problem is people (and ultimately they are the ones who make the descisions) don't want it. In the DC area we have roughly 10 million people, only a very very very minor percentage of those people choose to use the metro system. Im convinced that even if we had Startreks transporters there would still be loads of people wanting thier cars Yeah I know Im in the minority on my views but what I posted here is still valid.

------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-06-2001).]
 
Old 09-06-2001, 01:33 PM   #16
MagiK
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Hey Avatar Good Idea I always thought that every kid graduating High School should have to at least go through basic training does wonders for building a bit of character and reduces the whine factor by a large margin
So we could combine your idea and mine and the world will be saved

That was a joke son

------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.
 
Old 09-06-2001, 01:34 PM   #17
Avatar
Vampire
 

Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: Cambridge
Age: 40
Posts: 3,877
Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Good post Yorik Don't agree with all the ideas but the posts you are getting in response aren't taking into account several things.

A. It is impossible to legisltate reproduction. China has tried with ruthless tactics and people still reproduce.

B. Who in gods (or what ever higher power you may ascribe to) name gives ANYONE the right to tell someone they have to stop at 2 kids? (we stopped at 2 of our own accord)

C. Oil is not the bane of the environment people seem to think it is. We are not likely to run out any time soon (see todays headlines about vast new deposits found in china). Any replacement for fossil fuels will have its own costs and toxicities.

D. Barring a total collapse into barbarism I prefer to see a bright future for humans one where we expand beyond this planet to despoil the rest of the solar system of its resources. The resources are there for our taking left unused..they are just a waste.

E. Western cultures don't need a mental shift. It is western culture that has been the leading drive for advances in the last several centuries. Life expectancy and quality of life has exploded due to the sop called western cultures.

F. It is easy to pooh pooh society and to condemn it for its abuses...but without it you woldn't have a place or the means to post these messages. Having visited several "undeveloped" countries or lesser developed countries I can tell you the people living in those so called undespoiled lands are living a day to day existing at the mercy of wind weather and nature just to stay alive...I prefer civilization and so do most of them if they have the chance.


This isn't an attak or a hate motivated post. Im just pointing some things out.
If we all got rid of our cars and used horses we would still have pollution, just in another form. I would also like to point out that mass transit is a nice concept and can work, the only problem is people (and ultimately they are the ones who make the descisions) don't want it. In the DC area we have roughly 10 million people, only a very very very minor percentage of those people choose to use the metro system. Im convinced that even if we had Startreks transporters there would still be loads of people wanting thier cars Yeah I know Im in the minority on my views but what I posted here is still valid.

Magik, you are right. No one like to empose sanctions on their own race. But I am afraid it's for the greater good. Expanding onto other planets? Dream on. Yes I am aware of GM programms to recolonise Mars. How long do we have to wait just to send probes to it. No we don't have a right to condemn and judge those who are less fortunate. As a unknowing fool is not a fool. We must help them to understand and benefit their future generations.


------------------
Avatar is offline  
Old 09-06-2001, 01:36 PM   #18
MagiK
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Nononono Avatar I didn't say anything about colonising other planets thats hundreds of years away I was talking MINING Asteroid mining is a theoretical possibility in the not too distant future as is mining the moon.
The initial investment is gonna be huge and since we arent out of cheaper options right here its not being done but once things tget too expensive here...there is another source.

------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.
 
Old 09-06-2001, 02:17 PM   #19
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
This lot didn't get transferred, and I refuse to be left out, lol!

Sigh. Yorick, there have ALWAYS been haves and have-nots. Even among cave-men. Why? Various factors: intellignece, physical fitness, injury; selfishness, greed, kindness, compassion. Nothing new.
What IS new is the scale of the problem - BECAUSE WE HAVE TOO DAMN MUCH POPULATION!!
What's wrong with acknowledging that, Yorick? Is it a religious thing with you?Look. Your own god said 'fill the earth'. OK. What do you do with a container when it is full? YOU STOP PUTTING MORE IN!!
And do you fill a cup of water RIGHT TO THE TOP so that it is slopping out everywhere? NO! You fill it COMFORTABLY full, not BRIM FULL.
Our planet is not yet overpopulated. We CAN feed everyone - we just DON'T. But if we go ON filling the 'cup' we will reach a time when we can't. Who wants to live in an overcrowded, underfed and desperate world with all the resouces used up, just because we don't want to do anything to curb population growth?
Shutting your eyes to something won't make it go away. I've tried it, lol!


Yorick, you know quite well that I agree with all of your above post to Moridin. (First one in this thread)
What I don’t understand is your failure to see the need for population control. As for effective ways to curb population – what is wrong with sex education and the condom? Not overly expensive, unharmful, and highly effective!
The major problem to be overcome is the attitude of some bodies (usually religious). It is seen as preferable for a family to try to raise children they can’t afford to feed and do not want, condemning such children, their siblings and their parents to relentless poverty. The alternative – allowing the parents a CHOICE – is seen as inherently bad. Yet parents who have choice, and who limit their family size, are better off. The children are better fed, the mother’s health is better and they have less mouths to feed with their limited income, thus producing happier, healthier families. Ultimately, that leads to a happier, healthier, and more environmentally balanced HUMAN FAMILY.


Do you think because I disagree with you that I have my eyes shut? Fjlotsdale give me a break.

Let's start at the top. Yes there has always been haves and have nots. That's the point I was making. Secondly the scale of the problem is due to technology and mismanagement not overpopulation. Nuclear bombs and nuclear power is a choice. Coal emmissions are a choice. Fume emmiting cars are a choice. The technology is there for cleaner alternate fuel cars. Governments choose to buid highways that encourage more cars instead of building light rail (trams), rail, ferry ports and bus only routes and subsidising taxis. I never suggested we go back to horses and carriages guys, and I acknowledged the difficulty of living in a car centred culture. What I'm pointing out is that people do manage to live in smaller areas without cars where the infrastructure exists. Why can you not see thisFjlotsdale, why do you shut your eyes and refuse to blame the way you, I and our ancestors have lived for generations now. It is easy to blame numbers, easy because it's an avoidance of responsibility.

To curb population it's not just a matter of stopping at two kids. That maintains population levels while doing nothing to curb vomitous amounts of petrol fumes into the air.

Do you really think that numbers had anything to do with French atomic tests in the pacific? Do you really think that numbers have anything to do with shonky ships dropping gallons of oil in the ocean? Do you really believe that humans have to burn coal for energy and not build huge ecofriendly wind farms and solar generators?

Please, don't tell me I'm shutting my eyes. That is an insult quite out of context to our friendly banter.

Finally you are talking allowing a choice regarding child numbers. Funny that's what I'm talking. No one forces these families to have seven children. They choose. No one forces the west to have none, or smaller numbers. It is a choice. However, do we really believe that India is the worst pollutant of the world? India will soon be the most populous nation on earth. It is also one of the poorest. (So much for Karma...) Which out of the USA and India has produced more damage to the environment?

It wouldn't come down to technology and resultant choices would it?

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-06-2001).]
Yorick is offline  
Old 09-06-2001, 02:27 PM   #20
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Oh, as an afterthough.. "fill the earth" has hardly been done. There are vast, vast areas of land scarcely populated. Climate should make no difference to anyone now. Airconditioned or centrally heated houses, cars, malls, subways. Humanity could build a domed city in Antarctica if we really wanted to - such is the technology.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-06-2001).]
Yorick is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
IWF population ... QUESTION? Volguuz RageWaar General Discussion 8 02-18-2005 07:12 PM
Infanticide and Over-population The Hierophant General Discussion 10 09-10-2004 03:22 AM
Population and economy. Sir Kenyth General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 6 11-03-2003 08:03 PM
World Population Horatio General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 14 05-16-2003 12:05 PM
Population Growth of world. Sir Goulum General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 12 05-05-2002 06:46 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2024 Ironworks Gaming & ©2024 The Great Escape Studios TM - All Rights Reserved