Religion

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Durwyn:
Is this like a "who worships Satan?" post? heh [img]smile.gif[/img] . I'm really not getting the main point here, who is a pagan?

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Satan is a personalization of evil created by a group of monotheistic Western religions. The concept is originally Manichean: the idea that there isn't just a God, but opposing forces, light and dark, warring for the universe. A lot of this got carried over into Christianity by the highly influential Augustine of Hippo, who was himself originally a Manichean.

Some Wiccans are monotheistic, but they worship a Goddess, not a God, and they don't perceive evil as incarnate in any opposition figure. And many Wiccans (including myself) are pantheists, who worship a Godhood too all-encompassing to understand in a single figure, by using multiple Gods and Goddesses. Satan in any case has no meaning for us. Harming others is something personal, based on ego and wrong decisions, not on some cackling sulphur-flavored fiend whispering in our ears.

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by Durwyn:
Is this like a "who worships Satan?" post? heh [img]smile.gif[/img] . I'm really not getting the main point here, who is a pagan?

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Durwyn, Satan is of the Christian belief system (see the post above), and only people who base their beliefs in Christian theology believe in Satan.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are ignorant of this, but be *very* careful in what you say to people about their beliefs, that you do not belittle or insult them.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Epona ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I'm a Southern Baptist Born-Again Christian....I seemed to have stumbled into the wrong thread (looks around nervously) [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] .

Now for the real shocker....I'm not going give the usual "Hellfire and Brimstone" admonishment [img]graemlins/madhell.gif[/img] I'm sure you're used to hearing.

In my circle of friends from college (my old PnP group), there is a Wiccan, a couple of agnostics (haven't decided if God exists or not), and one very determined atheist. He and I have had on-going theological debates for well over a year now.

I respect everyone's choice of religious practice, whether I agree with it or not. But I would be happy to discuss or debate any ideological differences. I give my word of honor that my comments will be courteous and considerate.

The only "religion" I have any real objection to is Satanism. I guess that's because (to quote my college roommate) "Satanism is vey similar to Christianity, except they want Satan to win." It's kinda hard to cheer for the other team, so to speak.

However, I stand by my promise. If you want to debate, I will keep all comments kind and respectful. [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:


For the record, I am pagan and a non-Wiccan witch. I do not believe in or worship Satan, nor do I participate in sacrificial rites or 'black magic'.

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Durwyn,

Benefit of the doubt----see the above snippet from my original post to this thread.

The reason I said this was because of the common perception that witches have a mad love affair going with the 'devil' and so that folks would know from the outset this was *NOT* part of the paganism/witchcraft package.

If you care to peruse the remainder of this thread, you would notice several more pertinent points which might alleviate your misunderstanding.

Cerek, darlin'.....long time, no talk. I promise not to Baptist bash, ok? [img]smile.gif[/img] as long as we keep the green face/warts on the chin comments to a minimum.

And Satanism is actually (documented fact, folks) a cult of Christianity.

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
Loosely, a pagan is someone who follows an earth-based religious/spiritual path not of the mainstream religions (Christianity, Islam or Judaism). Some include other 'big' religions in that mainstream list like Buddhism.

Paganism acknowledges the divinity found in Nature. Typically there is a balance of male and female. Satan is not revered as he is an individual originating and found in the Judeo-Christian religion. The belief in reincarnation and kharma may be present. Personal Deity may be revered and petitioned who belong to the classical pantheons of the past (Greek, Roman, Norse, Indian, etc). There are more points to the religion than that, obviously, but it is a widely diverse path so many generalisms can be made which may not apply to all. Some groups included within the term 'pagan' are (to name but a few) Wicca, Asatru, Druidism, Stregheria.

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thanks garnet. that clarified a little the issue, although i can see its quite complicated (as with any religion).

my opinion on this? well, personally im agnostic, so no religion particularly appeals to me. not because i dislike them in particular, but for the reason that in the theory they all acknowledge the existence of a superior or superior entities that have predominance over the decisions and actions of human beings. entities that somehow are on a different ground than the human being.

i dont know if it or they exist (although im more inclined to say it/they dont). ill guess ill only find out when i die, im afraid, since faith in deities (that being the notion of believing in something for which there is no irrefutable proof) is definitely thin on me.

edit:
also, id like to point out that i believe that our actions are ultimately our OWN responsability. sometimes religion is just a scapegoat for not taking that responsability. unfortunately religion has been also the source for most of the hatred, killing, torture and pain in the history of our world. or at least a good excuse for it.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

quote:

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Originally posted by WOLFGIR:

Then you would know that black is mostly the color of universe not death]

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Technicaly Black and Wite are not colours, Black is the abscence of light and white is the combination of all the colours of the spectrum...now things get murky when you differentiate between pigments and electromagnetic radiation [img]smile.gif[/img] soooooooo

[fable]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I'm a Southern Baptist Born-Again Christian....I seemed to have stumbled into the wrong thread (looks around nervously) [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] .

Now for the real shocker....I'm not going give the usual "Hellfire and Brimstone" admonishment [img]graemlins/madhell.gif[/img] I'm sure you're used to hearing.

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Cerek, I have a few close friends who are born again (and I don't mean Krishna worshippers, either). We actually share a certain point of view about the importance of religious values permeating life. And such discussions on religion as we have are friendly. Though it has to be said that most times I've encountered born-again people who were rude zealots, interested only in forcing me to lip service to their religious creed. When I refused this, I was treated as dirt. I know intellectually that it takes all kinds, and I can emotionally accept this as well, at least, on most occasions...but there are times when I hear some spittle-wielding preacher urging his congregation to *stone* pagans, that I'm inclined to wonder what the Godhood had in mind at the moment of his/her conception.

I respect everyone's choice of religious practice, whether I agree with it or not. But I would be happy to discuss or debate any ideological differences. I give my word of honor that my comments will be courteous and considerate.

Personally, I'm not interested in religious debate. I have never accepted the Principle of the Excluded Third, and believe that any number of contradictions can all be equally correct. This makes for very bad mathematics, but it does mean I get to wink at the universe every so often, and it winks back. And I have no problem in accepting that the spiritual force lying behind and within the universe is far too complex to be comprehended by any human being, much less discussed with full knowledge.

If you concerns about Wicca, I can try and answer 'em, but I make no promises. And I'm sure other pagans will take an active part. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epona:


Durwyn, Satan is of the Christian belief system (see the post above), and only people who base their beliefs in Christian theology believe in Satan.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are ignorant of this, but be *very* careful in what you say to people about their beliefs, that you do not belittle or insult them.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Epona ]

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Im sorry but you are a bit off there, Christians are not the only nor the first religeon to have a "Satanic" figure in the mythos, Christians may actually have copied this figure from earlier belief systems.

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by J'aran:

BTW what do you mean by that remark: 'ignorance is bliss they say, but I can't agree'? You mean that Wiccans/Pagans are ignorant?

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J'aran, the way I read it, Wolfgir was referring to those people who assume black=death - not Wiccans/Pagans! I like to think I have known him long enough to be sure he would never demean anyone that way [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Epona ]

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by MagiK:


Im sorry but you are a bit off there, Christians are not the only nor the first religeon to have a "Satanic" figure in the mythos, Christians may actually have copied this figure from earlier belief systems.

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Nope, nope, she didn't say Christians had the monopoly or the trademark on Satan but that Satan was "of" the Christian belief system.