On patriotism

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Originally posted by Absynthe: Germany, Germany above all, above all in the World I think I'm right with that, although it's been about fifteen years since I studied German...

You are fairly correct with your translation, Absynthe, but that portion you translated needs some sort of interpretation as it is not quite as nationalistic as it sounds at first: From the German grammar one can easily see that "all" here means "everything" and NOT "everybody". (in which case it would have to be "allen" instead of "alles"). And the meaning of "everything" in this context explains itself from the German and European history of the 19th century (the lyrics of the anthem were written in the 1840s by Hugo von Hofmannsthal, an Austrian btw): the 19th century in Europe has been labelled the "era of nationalism" as all the peoples and ethnic groups who had not yet established their own nation states strived for doing exactly that. The two most prominent cases of such "belated" nations were Italy and Germany which up to 1859 and 1871 respectively were still made up of many independent principalities (which in the case of Italy were furthermore mostly governed by foreign dynasties like Austria-Hungary). So "Germany above everything" means that every good German patriot should strive first and foremost for the unification of all of Germany in one independent nation state.

A very interesting thread indeed, Kaz, but I beg to differ: I think that the reserved attitude of Germans towards patriotic symbols like anthems and flags is inevitable considering our history and the way those symbols and patriotic feelings in general were abused. And it might be a very German way of thinking - as a result of what I just mentioned - but I can simply not help it: anything related to patriotism anywhere in any country makes me first think of the dangers of patriotic feelings and of how narrow the line between healthy patriotism and dangerous nationalism ALWAYS is and has been instead of the positive energies for selfless and benevolent deeds it might help to mobilize. And I also think that even positive and non-presumptuous patriotic feelings are always very prone to be manipulated and abused. Like I said: my general skepticism towards the virtues of patriotism might very well be something very German and just a result of our national history and thus "unbalanced" ...

Thanks for bearing me out !



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So long !

R³ - proud to be the official spokesman for the most noble Lady Bilqis, Desert Rose of Ironworks

Btw, the cow is queuing in the slaughterhouse right now !

[This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 09-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 09-12-2001).]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: Believe it or not, I found out that my daughter says the Pledge of Alegience at school. I was shocked to here this. We didn't say it after the second grade at school when I was growing up. BTW she's in a public school too.

Hey, that is cool
My son didn't...he went to public schools in AZ.
I also noticed in my travels across the U.S. that the rural flag-flying seems to be more of a midwest and southern tradition.
The house I live in has a flagpole...grandpa put it up and used to fly his flag but it has been empty for years...the only use it gets now is as Captain Marmalade's (headfirst) slide-pole as a way off the roof.



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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!

[Kaz]

Ramon, I agree with you that patriotism should be regarded very skeptically. However, I am beginning to get the impression that we are really taught that patriotism is a bad thing (quite understandable considering our history) and that anybody who is patriotic toward Germany is in danger of becoming a Neo-Nazi. It is this what I wished to discuss - is it good that you basically are not allowed to be proud of your country, but is it good to be overly patriotic and proud of your country (as many Americans are)?
I hope I have cleared things up a bit.

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Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

Ramon, thanks for the clarification on the verses. It is critical in the understanding of a country or it's people to understand their history. Especially in Europe, there is a very intricate history of interactions between nation-states which has resulted in feelings of hard-won independence and nationalism. This nationalism can lead to strife amongst neighboring nations that lies unresolved for generations. It is understandable that many view this type of patriotism with caution. It happens all too frequently in America, also.
However, what I observe in American patriotism most often is not an "I'm better than you" kind of feeling, but more sort of "What we have here is a wonderful thing". Not that we don't have problems with overzealous "patriots", but for the majority, I think that we just take pride in our country.
I hope that answers your question to some extent, Kaz.
My $.02

Originally posted by Kaz: Ramon, I agree with you that patriotism should be regarded very skeptically. However, I am beginning to get the impression that we are really taught that patriotism is a bad thing (quite understandable considering our history) and that anybody who is patriotic toward Germany is in danger of becoming a Neo-Nazi. It is this what I wished to discuss - is it good that you basically are not allowed to be proud of your country, but is it good to be overly patriotic and proud of your country (as many Americans are)? I hope I have cleared things up a bit.

Define "overly patriotic and proud" Please? And while your at it could you mark the distinction of just how patriotic you are allowed to be before you become overly patriotic?

Patriotism is a great thing and is not a problem. You have problems when you get involved in irrational fanaticism which is not patriotism but "irrational fanaticism"...at least that is how I see things. Words have meaning, and you should use the correct word for what you mean. In this conversation I think people are blurring the word patriotism into fanaticism.

But you know for being just a kid you do ok Kaz


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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-12-2001).]

[DragonMage]

IMHO, patriotism without rabidity.

Be proud of your country and stand behind it sure, but don't defend it on principle alone. I am 100% American and VERY proud of it, but I ALSO admit that we have failings and shortcomings. I am not blind to the fact that, although we may be able to elect our leaders, we have very little, if any, say in what they do once they are elected. I also question every bit of news I hear. I know full well that my government doesn't tell everything to it's people. I'm not stupid.

I also feel there IS a fine line between patriotism and fanaticism. We have to be very careful never to cross that line. I feel that this is where most terrorist come from in the first place. That and not getting (or not wanting) the whole truth. They see only what they are taught, are not allowed to question and wouldn't question if given the chance. Basically - they are ignorant. Seeing the pictures of those Palestinians celebrating gave me chills. Especially seeing as how many of them were CHILDREN!!! But they have no other information than that which they are fed, so they believe Americans are monsters that should be wiped from the earth. Then they have children of their own and tell them the same things. Very scary!

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

[Istaron]

I know how you feel... in sweden, the national hymn is forbidden to sing in school since "it may offend foregin people"... why do we have to lick their asses like that? I mean, nothing bad with letting them know they are not unwelcome, but it is OUR country, and THEY are the one who should be happy we let them in.

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We call him Bobby Corwen

Well said DM. I especially agree with your point on NOT believing everything that is in the press, every "news" organization these days has ulterior motives and affiliations and they allow it to affect their reporting...Wish they had kept to just reporting the news...not spinning it.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Originally posted by Istaron: I know how you feel... in sweden, the national hymn is forbidden to sing in school since "it may offend foregin people"... why do we have to lick their asses like that? I mean, nothing bad with letting them know they are not unwelcome, but it is OUR country, and THEY are the one who should be happy we let them in.

I just looooove your country for oh so many many reasons





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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[Mouse]

Patriotism is a noble emotion. It's just a pity a lot of people mix it up with bigotry, xenophobia, jingoism etc..........

Oh and just for a bit of trivia, here is the little quoted verse 6 of "God Save the Queen/King"

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!


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Regards



Mouse



[This message has been edited by Mouse (edited 09-12-2001).]