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Old 03-24-2004, 03:57 AM   #11
ScottG
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actually for monks the gloves aren't really needed (at least for higher level monks). Consider that the class usually has higer ac, more attacks, and higher (much higher) damage than a fighter (at high levels). Now throw in all the immunities of a Monk (virtually immune to everything at level 20), + add a substantial quanitity of skill points.

For Druids:

Look a little closer at the spells Druids have.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwint...idlevelone.php

In particularly notice the quantity and quality of their offensive spells - especially when considering savings throws and resistances. In fact if it were not for Mordenkainens Disjunction and Epic level sorc./wis. spells, I think I'd prefer a Druid JUST as an offensive spell caster over a same level sorc./wis.. And for melee capability they are every bit as good as a cleric while having better defensive spells. And finally, because the strength of summons (particularly undead) has been greatly reduced in NWN's - the Druid actually summon as well or better (because the elementals are stronger than the undead). Finally, elemental shape change at higher levels can be usefull.

As for restrictions - well Druids used to have similar restrictions, but unfortunetly they don't any more. In fact overall I prefer 2nd edition rules by a substantial margin (THAC0 being the real exception, but also attribute point structuring and leveling).

Back to the dragon resistance thing..

If it was destruction then it would have to be the dragon's spell resistance that was screwed with - realistically an ancient red dragon should have resisted all of your spells that have resistance, (destruction and harm are spells that are suceptable to being resisted). And of course if its resisted then their is no damage - its only a failed savings throw that will still result in damage.
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Old 03-25-2004, 11:31 AM   #12
pritchke
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For the two dragons near the end neither Harm, nor Destruction(still did damage but not instant death) worked for me so that battle was good).

Note: I did not rest before this battle so I decided to teleport back to the temple after one had been badly wounded. One of them somehow followed me back through the portal into the temple. First time a creature did that, I thought the temple was like my sanctuary. Anyway everyone in the temple joined in the battle so I had to finish him in the temple in an awsone battle were I used the temple guards as a destraction to get off my remaining spells that dealt damage.


[ 03-25-2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]
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Old 03-25-2004, 02:55 PM   #13
Awlpike
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TO play as a Dragon now that would be cool or a dragon spawn of some sort... maybe a dragon hench men for nwn 2. SOmething like a dracoinan... maybe?
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Old 03-25-2004, 03:33 PM   #14
Illumina Drathiran'ar
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I do know that in one of the expansions... I think it's HoU... you can play a dragon disciple prestige class, which means you have dragon blood, albeit thinned.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:06 PM   #15
Stratos
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There's already a lv. 9 spell called Shapeshift that allows you to turn into a dragon. It's available to Wizards, Sorcerers and Druids.

If you buy HotU you can play a Prestige Class called Red Dragon Disciple, as well as turning into one with a feat called Dragon Shape.

In HotU there is a dragon to have as a henchman, well he's almost a dragon, and there's both fairy dragons and pseudodragons available as familiars in SoU.

Enough dragons for you yet?
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:25 PM   #16
Awlpike
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Cool still working on chapoter 2... Something to look foward to.. Playing the a Ranger is not as satisfing as i thought it woulb be but non the less its still a good time to order the next to exp packs i guess.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:40 PM   #17
Stratos
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Quote:
Originally posted by ScottG:

For Druids:

Look a little closer at the spells Druids have.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwint...idlevelone.php

In particularly notice the quantity and quality of their offensive spells - especially when considering savings throws and resistances. In fact if it were not for Mordenkainens Disjunction and Epic level sorc./wis. spells, I think I'd prefer a Druid JUST as an offensive spell caster over a same level sorc./wis.. And for melee capability they are every bit as good as a cleric while having better defensive spells. And finally, because the strength of summons (particularly undead) has been greatly reduced in NWN's - the Druid actually summon as well or better (because the elementals are stronger than the undead). Finally, elemental shape change at higher levels can be usefull.

As for restrictions - well Druids used to have similar restrictions, but unfortunetly they don't any more. In fact overall I prefer 2nd edition rules by a substantial margin (THAC0 being the real exception, but also attribute point structuring and leveling).

Don't get me wrong, I like to play Druids too, more so than Clerics, but I still consider the latter to be better than the former simply because a Cleric can do so much.

Each class should have a niche to fill, and the Clerics should be healing/buffing/raising as well as fighting undead and outsiders. The Druid should be focused on summoning, elemental magic and healing to a certain extent. And considering they hate undead so much, they should also have at least a ONE spell at lower levels that damages undead. They only have two and they're both high-level ones. Further While the elementalist aspect of the Druid is true in NWN, the summoning part isn't. A Cleric can summon everything a Druid can with the exception of an animal companion and the lv. 9 Druid spell Elemental Swarm. On the other hand, a Cleric can summon undead with three different spells, summon an outsider with Planar Ally and a Balor with the Gate spell. Not to mention that the Druid have NO spell to unsummon their enemies' summons with, while the Cleric has two; Dismissal and Banishment. Heck, even the Bard gets Dismissal.

The Cleric also get every stat boosting spell ( Bull Strength, Cat's Grace etc) except for Eagle Splendor, while the Druid only get Bull's Strength. Methinks those spells would fit better in the Druids spell selection than in the Clerics.

[ 03-30-2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]
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Old 03-30-2004, 03:06 PM   #18
pritchke
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Quote:
Originally posted by Awlpike:
Cool still working on chapoter 2... Something to look foward to.. Playing the a Ranger is not as satisfing as i thought it woulb be but non the less its still a good time to order the next to exp packs i guess.
I have to agree a Ranger seems quite week at the start of the original. I am using one of SoU and it has been quite satisfying. I think SoU is much better suited for a ranger. Still week at the very start but he starts to come into his own at level 4 of the expansion.

[ 03-30-2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]
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Old 03-30-2004, 04:43 PM   #19
ScottG
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I think you have pre-concieved notions on RPG classes, which is OK (to many people don't have much of anything rpg-wise), but its limiting your perspective when comparing the 2 classes.

I capitulate on the summoning ability, I don't think much of Gate in this game (Balor's are typically always preoccupied on using death spells, which are usually protected against), or the upper level undead summons (which are amazingly week), BUT Planar Ally for a GOOD character is quite powerfull (perhaps enough to offset elemental swarm). Note however that Druids can enhance ANY summon's ability.

I'll also concede the lack of dismissal or banishment (though from an RPG point of view it makes sense - ask nature to dismiss something.. weak premis, as opposed to asking a god to dismiss something). (and I think the Bard was tossed a bone here - and one that wasn't needed considering their ability to use scrolls via "use magic item".)

As for spells that damage undead, well MOST of a Druid's offensive spells will damage undead - who cares if its specifically targeted at undead or not - undead generally aren't that resistant. In fact from this perspective you'll see that their offensive spells not only work on undead but on most other creatures as well, which is eminently more usable, (i.e. why have a bevy of spells that work only on one racial type?). (and again, from an rpg viewpoint consider that Druids are far less likely to come across undead.)

Furthermore Constructs can be more difficult (perhaps FAR more difficult with their virtual immunity to spells) than undead, and ONLY Druids have a spell specifically targeted at them.

Stat boosting? Its not even close -

consider that your boosting stats for essentially two purposes:
1. to enhance melee prowess
2. to enhance magical prowess (particularly spell penetration)
3. (limited use for increasing skill points)

1. for melee prowess you concern your self with defensive and offensive capability. (and please note that the 2nd level enhancement spells are covered by potions)

For defensive we have the Cleric's Cat's Grace - which is typically worthless for Armor using combatant's. But hold on - the Druid gets Barkskin at that level that usually does increase AC (IF they aren't wearing a high natural armor boosting item) - AND the AC increase is substantially above what Cat's grace would provide (BUT the Cleric can to depending on domain). However the Cleric has several modifiers that are better for AC, like Entropic Shield, Shield of Faith, and Magic Vestment. For AC enhancement the Cleric wins. Also Constitution modifiers are Endurance for the Cleric and Blood Frenzy for the Druid. The Druid at spell level 4 also receives stoneskin, (BUT the Cleric can to depending on domain choice). At 6th spell level the Druid gets Greater stoneskin AND Regeneration, neither available to the Cleric (well a lesser version of regeneration is available). At spell level 7 the Druid has acess to Aura of Vitality which will give a boost in Dexterity, but like Cat's Grace this is otherwise worthless for the Druid (though perhaps not for summon's and henchmen). Additionally however Aura of Vitality isn't worthless for its constitution modifier - with no equivlant for the Cleric unless a chosen through a domain. At spell level 8 the Druid gets Premonition - which isn't available to the Cleric.

Overall, despite the Cleric's clear AC superiority, the Druid wins with the damage reduction spells and better regeneration.

For offensive capability they both have Bull's strength BUT Druid's also have Blood Frenzy - adding to melee base attacks and damage. At spell level 7 Druids can use Aura of Vitality to increase strength even more. With all 3 spells in use a Druid's attack and damage bases go up to a maximum of +5. Cleric's however have access to additional attack and damage modifiers: Divine Favor & Aid. A possible negative here is Dexterity modifiers for ranged attack, Aura of Vitality is more powerfull than Cat's Grace BUT it doesn't last nearly as long and it uses a high level spell. (and that doesn't make any rpg sense.. a cleric better with a ranged weapon than a Druid?.. eh, maybe a crossbow.)

Overall Offensive melee capability goes to the Cleric - (which does make sense rpg-wise).

2. Enhancing magical prowess concerns 2 basic factors, increasing spell penetration and decreasing spell resistance.

Clerics at spell level 2 can use Owl's wisdom to increase their spell penetration, the max here is +5 to wisdom AND it lasts a long time. Furthermore it utilizes only a 2nd level spell. Druids however pay more for their spell penetration BUT they get a LOT more to. At spell level 5 they get Owl's insight - it lasts as long and gives (depending on caster level) a LOT more wisdom, (+10 for a 20th level caster). And face the facts, you usually start worrying about spell penetration ONLY at very high character levels. Additionally of course a druid can quaff a potion of Owl's wisdom to compensate for the lack of the spell to add even more wisdom.

Druids can also cast Nature's Balance at spell level 8. With the exception of the Sorcerer's/Wizards Mordenkainens Disjunction, there isn't another spell that will reduce an opponents spell resistance.

As if this were not enough, MOST of the Druid's offensive spells have little or no savings throw chances - only spell resistance. Combine ALL of these factors together (VERY high modified wisdom + spell resistance reduction + spells with only spell resistance), and it really makes a Druid a VERY offensive spell caster.

Both the Druid & Cleric can also enhance their spell resistance at spell level 5. Something no other class can do effectivly, (but a Monk gets it naturally).

and while were at it lets not forget the Druids advantage in skill points (which is almost double that of a cleric).

[ 03-31-2004, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: ScottG ]
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