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Old 10-27-2004, 07:15 PM   #21
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

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Great link, Arledrian;
I really appreciate all the input! I think the "when in doubt, don't" addige may come into play here. There are certain things I won't play. Just like certain music I won't listen to. So, my Warrior Priest (2nd ed) will continue to wander the land trying to make the fantasy world a better place. I also hope that I have a positive affect on the other players who are not Church go'ers.
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Old 10-27-2004, 09:10 PM   #22
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Arledrian, that was a... interesting read. It has certainly opened my eyes to the truth behind DnD [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 10-27-2004, 11:24 PM   #23
Lucern
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That's a 'great' Chick comic; they're all pretty similar. If you're not of the fundamentalist Christian persuasion, you'll likely find one or more targetted at you if you look around -Catholics, Muslims, Jews, homosexuals, pro-choicers, people who listen to rock music, scientists, and so many others. The 'chick tracts' are almost entertaining in their extremism, except that they're so hateful. Bet'cha can't read just one though

Don't say I didn't warn ya though lol: http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

I don't think this would even be an issue without a certain amount of ridiculous publicity in the early-mid 1980s very much like that Chick comic.

Pen and paper RPGs encourage imagination, creativity, and problem-solving. It can be developed into something else according to the person running the game, but I really think everyone's more interested in having fun by telling a story and overcoming challenges than dabbling in the occult.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d3.htm
(In case you're concerned that this kind of role-playing is anything but harmless, this link academically answers allegations of the occult, suicide rates, and more relating to role-playing games)

EDIT: Update, this one cracks me up lol http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0099/0099_01.asp

[ 10-27-2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Lucern ]
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Old 10-28-2004, 01:40 AM   #24
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Ooh, I really like the party-girl one! What's sad, though, is that I think much of what is said in these, (especially in reference to Catholics), is believed in my home town area. Oh well, its only one more reason being a hermit would be nice. Not having to deal with other's stupidity.
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Old 10-28-2004, 02:05 AM   #25
JrKASperov
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Let's look at DnD from a different POV!

I am a Christian, but was not until a year ago! And boy, interesting story!

DnD got me started thinking about religion and ethics. The good/evil axis really inspired me philosofically, and I started reading ForgottenRealms books, which are laden with moral questions and struggle. Then I read the Cleric Quintet! By that time I had already become a Christian but had no real idea what i should be doing. But the CQ showed me a man SO devout in his beliefs that nothing could hurt him and he could trample all that stood before him. And then i realised, I can do this as well! I háve the access to that kind of mental stability, and it has led me to grow beyond other Christians close to me who have been a Christian for many more years. They have often expressed my close connection to the Holy Spirit, I even heard that from a priest.

With this story I want to show that DnD can also be a good influence. It's all in the mind of the person doing it. If you are open to the devil's influence, you will be influenced. If you recognize and battle his work every way, you should not be afraid of playing games that possibly might interest you in the occult.

Then, on the other side, there is the point that the arcane magic in DnD is as far from this world's occultism as can be. You cannot learn anything from DnD and how mages cast spells is totally different from modern witches. That there often is a pantheon can in most worlds be explained by the fact that in those worlds the gods are not really gods, rather powerful entities...
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Old 10-28-2004, 02:31 AM   #26
krunchyfrogg
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Wow, great story, JrKASperov!

BTW, just to make something perfectly clear: most Christians do not agree with Jack Chick.
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Old 10-28-2004, 02:50 AM   #27
Lucern
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Indeed Krunchyfrogg, he makes it quite hard for many people to agree with his tracts. His comics are meant to be somewhat subversively spread around AFAIK, so that someone finds it and connects (or connects it with the nearest trash-bin).
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Old 10-28-2004, 04:41 AM   #28
Variol (Farseer) Elmwood
Jack Burton
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by JrKASperov:
Let's look at DnD from a different POV!

I am a Christian, but was not until a year ago! And boy, interesting story!

DnD got me started thinking about religion and ethics. The good/evil axis really inspired me philosofically, and I started reading ForgottenRealms books, which are laden with moral questions and struggle. Then I read the Cleric Quintet! By that time I had already become a Christian but had no real idea what i should be doing. But the CQ showed me a man SO devout in his beliefs that nothing could hurt him and he could trample all that stood before him. And then i realised, I can do this as well! I háve the access to that kind of mental stability, and it has led me to grow beyond other Christians close to me who have been a Christian for many more years. They have often expressed my close connection to the Holy Spirit, I even heard that from a priest.

With this story I want to show that DnD can also be a good influence. It's all in the mind of the person doing it. If you are open to the devil's influence, you will be influenced. If you recognize and battle his work every way, you should not be afraid of playing games that possibly might interest you in the occult.

Then, on the other side, there is the point that the arcane magic in DnD is as far from this world's occultism as can be. You cannot learn anything from DnD and how mages cast spells is totally different from modern witches. That there often is a pantheon can in most worlds be explained by the fact that in those worlds the gods are not really gods, rather powerful entities...
Good story! ..and Catterly is very cool too!
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Old 10-28-2004, 05:20 AM   #29
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ditto [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:34 AM   #30
Cerek
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I began attending my current home church several years ago on a Wednesday night. The very first night I attended service, one of the deacon's wives got up and talked about the "evils of Dungeons and Dragons". I was very active in PnP at the time (gamed every Saturday night and sometimes on Friday), so I went up to her after the service and basically said "That was an interesting talk. Tell me how much you actually know firsthand about Dungeons and Dragons." The answer was "Not much". She sidestepped that issue, though, by claiming her husband was the one that was knowledgeable about the dangers of Dungeons and Dragons. He wasn't. He didn't have any firsthand knowledge or experience...just based his opinion on info distributed by Christian groups.

Now, there is nothing wrong with these groups being concerned about the game and distributing information...except that even these groups have very little real knowledge of the game. Instead, they seem to rely on the types of "urban legends" mentioned in the links provided by Lucern.

I did finally manage to have several good discussions about AD&D with a high school classmate of mine that was also a deacon of the church. He provided me with a more "neutral" tract presenting church arguments against AD&D. I read the material and discussed it with him at length.

These are the main arguments I've seen leveled against AD&D and my response to them.

1) AD&D teaches kids to worship false gods. This argument is based on the fact that the AD&D game encompassed dieties from several different cultural pantheons. Norse, Roman, Chinese, Aztec and even Native American pantheons were represented with details listed for each diety in every pantheon. The one "glaring omission" from this group was the inclusion of God and Jesus from Christianity. While it is true that players create an imaginary character and usually pick a diety for that character to worship, I never met a single player that actually believed in the same diety there character supposedly worshipped. So the accusation that it taught children to worship false gods was completely false.

2) AD&D teaches kids that God and Jesus are "false gods" also. This argument was a circular response made against the defense offered for argument#1. Some gaming groups - in response to the accusation they were worshipping "false gods" said "We don't actually worship these gods because we don't believe they are actually real. However, if it bothers you that bad, we will include Christianity as an optional religion for our players to choose from." The response was "You think these gods are false. By including Christianity, you are saying you also believe Christianity is false." In other words, they tried to have it both ways. They complained that players actually believed the "false gods" were real but then said that including God and Jesus meant the gamers were saying the Christian God wasn't real. Proof positive that there just wasn't any way to please some of the critics.

3) AD&D promotes devil worship. This argument was based on the fact that there are spells in the game that can be used to summon demons to help your character. The argument was that this taught kids to "call on Satan and/or demons" to help solve their problems. The fact that players created characters that sometimes cast spells did NOT mean that the players themselves actually believed THEY could also learn to cast spells and summon demons in real life to help them. Still, tThe game designers tried to accomodate this argument. In the 2nd and 3rd editions of AD&D, the demons and daemons described in the original Monster Manuals were noticeably absent.

4) AD&D teaches kids to cast spells. Same response as above. Just because there are certain character classes in the game that are considered spellcasters does NOT mean that the players themselves are actually going to want to learn to cast spells in real life.

5) At the very least, AD&D introduces kids to the basic terminology of the occult. This could lead to a curiousity and desire to learn more about occultic practices. This was the one bona-fide argument I found against AD&D. The original Dungeon Masters Guide DID give a rather comprehensive list of several occultic terms...some of which I had never even encountered before. Pentagrams and thaumaturgic circles were clearly diagramed in the DMG and a lot of the basic terminology of the occult was interjected into several different aspects of the game. At least this argument recognized that AD&D itself was not necessarily "occultic" - but that it did include the terminology and practices that could encourage gamers to explore these aspects more deeply. An honost assessment of the game cannot deny this argument.
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