how does one improve thaco? and...

[sheridan]

it was suggested in an earlier point that thaco at 14 would be miserable. i must admit, my thaco's aren't much better. 12's and i think sometimes there's a parenthesis like: 12(8).

additionally, what good is charisma? i have a paladin, and she has 19 at the moment, but i don't really see what that does.

it is mentioned that in severed hand there's an item called "misery's" something or other. i didn't see it on the map, nor did i pick it up. at the moment, i'm in dorn's deep, so i don't really feel like going back to look for it unless it's really worth it.

i know these are all basic questions, but i don't have the instructions, and i dont' know much about RPGs. hell, the first time i created a party, i put all their constitutions at the minimum because i thought constitution was something like "moral trustworthiness." silly me....

thanks,

sheridan

[the new JR Jansen]

The twelve is your base Thaco. The 8 is what you get when you take the twelve (base) and apply moddifiers like those recived from weapon specialisation or gauntlets of weapon expertise for example. There are several ways to improve your thace. By leveling up. Note that certain classes always get a thaco reduction (like warriors) and others might have to level up a few times. The second way is to put more proficiency points in your weapon of choice (also done by levelling up). The third way is to use better weapons. If you are using a long sword and find a long sword +1. The long sword +1 will give you a bonus to your Thaco. The fourth way is to use items that give specific bonuses to thaco like the gauntlets of weapon expertise.

Charisma lowers the prices in shops. There are other uses for a paladin but i'm not sure if those are related to charisma or not.

Certain items might not appaer in your game because the are random. Some treasure troves are set up so that the game randomly choises between usually three different items. This may be such an instance.

[Aerich]

Good answers, JR.

I'll just add one thing, that being the location of the non-random flail, Misery's Herald.

Spoilers
*
*
*
Misery's Herald is a +4 flail that is +5 vs elves. As you are through with the Severed Hand and may be past the "elven" area in Dorn's Deep, you may not want to take the time to go get it. It's on the second level of the SH, left side. There's three seperate areas on the left side, like the tree rings of a tree sawn in half lengthways. The Misery's Herald is in the middle "ring", at the extreme south end. I hope that description wasn't too complicated.

[Marty4]

I will just add, just in case you didn't know, that a lower THAC0 is BETTER. A THAC0 of 8 is respectable, in fact with a full party that's probably optimal. I am pretty sure that your base THAC0 cannot go below 1.

[ZFR]

High charisma might also give you extra dialogue options in some cases...

Also charisma of leader is also supposed to influence morale of whole party (them turning yellow and running when things get bad) dont know if it was implemmneted in IWD though.

[NobleNick]

sheridan,

My guess is that the THAC0 you quoted, "12(8)," is from a CLVL 5 Fighter (if you stacked your PP), a CLVL 6 or 7 Fighter (if you didn't), or a CLVL 7 Ranger or Paladin. Here is a short treatise on HP, THAC0, and Attacks per Round (ApR)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hit Points (HP), THAC0, and Attacks per Round (ApR)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(HP, THAC0 and ApR) vs. CLVL, for selected classes.

CLVL|__________HP__________|____________THAC0_____ _______|______ApR______|
____|_FPR_|_CD__|_TB__|_M__|_F__|_PR_|_CD_|_T__|_B __|_M__|_F_|_P_|_R_|Oth|
_01_|__14_|__10_|___8_|___6_|_18_|_18_|_20_|_20_|_ 20_|_20_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_02_|__28_|__20_|__16_|__12_|_17_|_17_|_20_|_20_|_ 20_|_20_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_03_|__42_|__30_|__24_|__18_|_14_|_16_|_18_|_18_|_ 19_|_19_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_04_|__56_|__40_|__32_|__24_|_13_|_15_|_17_|_18_|_ 19_|_18_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_05_|__70_|__50_|__40_|__30_|_12_|_14_|_17_|_17_|_ 18_|_18_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_06_|__84_|__60_|__48_|__36_|_11_|_13_|_17_|_17_|_ 18_|_18_|_1.5|1.5|2.5|_1_|
_07_|__98_|__70_|__56_|__42_|_10_|_12_|_15_|_16_|_ 17_|_17_|_2._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_08_|_112_|__80_|__64_|__48_|__9_|_11_|_15_|_16_|_ 17_|_17_|_2._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_09_|_126_|__90_|__72_|__54_|__8_|_10_|_15_|_15_|_ 16_|_17_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_10_|_129_|__92_|__78_|__58_|__7_|__9_|_13_|_15_|_ 16_|_16_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_11_|_132_|__94_|__80_|__59_|__6_|__8_|_13_|_14_|_ 15_|_16_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_12_|_135_|__96_|__82_|__60_|__5_|__7_|_13_|_14_|_ 15_|_16_|_3._|_2.|_3.|_1_|
_13_|_138_|__98_|__84_|__61_|__4_|__6_|_11_|_13_|_ 14_|_15_|_3.5|2.5|3.5|_1_|
_14_|_141_|_100_|__86_|__62_|__3_|__5_|_11_|_13_|_ 14_|_15_|_3.5|2.5|3.5|_1_|
_15_|_144_|_102_|__88_|__63_|__2_|__4_|_11_|_12_|_ 13_|_15_|_3.5|2.5|3.5|_1_|

- Numbers above assume that the character's STR=DEX=CON=18 & that the "Max HP/LVL" option has been selected in the game options menu.

- THAC0 & ApR in the chart are for the melee weapon. Assumes:
. . - PPs are stacked first in melee weapon, as high as class allows;
. . - Character wields the weapon that gives highest THAC0.
. . - Basic mid-quality Weapon, with NO magical modifiers.

- "Oth" in the ApR section means all classes Other than F, R and P.

- ApR for Ranger is single-handed weapon, no shield. If using shield (verified) or 2-handed weapon (not verified) subtract 1 ApR.

- According to Dundee Slaytern (not personally verified) the max ApR (from personal skills + equipment enchantments, etc.) is 5; but Haste (and other spells) can temporarily boost it as high as 10.


Bonuses To THAC0, Weapon Damage and ApR, vs. Proficiency Points in the weapon. The below PP bonuses are included in the THAC0 and ApR totals in the chart above


_#_OF_|___TOTAL_PP_BONUS_TO___|
__PP__|_THAC0_|_DAMAGE_|__APR__|
___0__|___-1__ |___-1___|___0.0__|
___1__|____0__ |____0___|___0.0__|
___2__|___+1__ |___+2___|__+0.5__|
___3__|___+3__ |___+3___|__+0.5__|
___4__|___+3__ |___+4___|__+0.5__|
___5__|___+3__ |___+5___|__+1.5__| <-- extra 1.0 ApR at 5 PP is not a typo.

- Chart data for ApR, only, is verified.

- 5 PP is the max that may be stacked in a melee weapon.

- 3 PP is the max that can be stacked in ranged weapon, with the exception that 5 PP may be stacked in Axe, which includes a thrown axe. It is unknown (unverified) whether or not the thrown axe benefits from all 5 PP stacked in Axe.

- Fighters may stack up to 5/3 (melee/ranged).

- DC Fighters may stack up to 5/3 ONLY while Fighter class is active.

- Paladin, Ranger and MC Fighter may stack up to 2/2.

- MC Ranger may stack up to 2/2 (unverified).

- All other classes may only stack up to 1/1.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


As has been pointed out, a THAC0 of 12(8) means the effective THAC0 is 8. As you can see, a THAC0 of 12(8) is respectable for a mid-game warrior. The Paladin may look weak, based solely on the above data, but don't give up on him: He gets excellent saving throws, compared to the Fighter, and has other advantages that should become apparent later in the game. The Ranger, too, is much more than just a "weak Fighter," if you build and use him correctly.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 04-19-2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Midget Gems]

Hey, NobleNick - my head hurts after reading all that technical stuff. So if I stay at Level1 I will have rubbish THACO, HP & APR, not to mention poor saving throws, but apart from that I have nothing to worry about. Avoids having to make all those difficult weapon choices as well.
No problem, MG.

[Morgeruat]

the THAC0 chart is a bit misleading as it only works that way if you put all points in 1 melee weapon rather than branching out into other useful weapons, with equal proficiency points in the weapons a Pal/Ranger has the same THAC0 and APR as a fighter. posting the chart and listing the various things that affect it would be more useful to a new player, with a functional example to illustrate the differences.

[NobleNick]

Midget Gems,

You don't gneed gno chart for your gnaive gnovice gnomes. If you did what you should have, and stacked exactly 2 high in exactly one melee and one ranged weapon, then your warrior's THAC0 should be about a gnasty 115) (assuming equipment and magical spell bonuses totalling 3).

Morgeraut,

Please excuse an unrepentant, unreformed power gamer. The chart is misleading only to those heretics who want to play a normal RPG. Anyone following the NobleNick school of power gaming will say, "versatility be damned;" then heap as many points into a weapon as possible and use that weapon.

But you are right: maybe a few formulas and examples would help. I am not as strong on this subject as I wish I were, but I'll give it a shot....

For warriors (including Fighters) with 2 PP or less stacked in the weapon being used: THAC0 = 21 - CLVL ( - PP stacked in used weapon - magic/equipment bonuses).

For warriors with 3 PP or more stacked in the weapon being used (only Fighters can do this): THAC0 = 21 - CLVL ( - 4 - magic/equipment bonuses).

EXAMPLE 1: A CLVL 1 warrior (Fighter, Pally or Ranger) who spreads 1 PP each in Large Sword, Dagger, Mace, and Bow; but then unwisely decides to use a plain old spear (even though he has no PP in spear), will have a THAC0 of 21 - 1 (- 0 - 0) = 20. His stats should show as 20(20). Ouch.

EXAMPLE 2: A CLVL 1 warrior, with the same spread, who picks up a normal mace, will have THAC0 = 21 - 1 (- 1 - 0) = 19. His stats should show as 20(19). So-so, even for a CLVL 1 warrior.

EXAMPLE 3: A CLVL 1 warrior, stacking the 4 available PP at the start into 2 in Long Sword and 2 in Bow, and using normal weapons, will have a THAC0 of 21 - 1 (- 2 - 0) = 18 in sword and in bow. His stats should show 20(18) when holding the sword or the bow. Well, 18 is a start...

From here on, with the exception of 2 wrinkles, it is a simple progression of each CLVL gained by a warrior reduces THAC0 by one. The two wrinkles: a Fighter can stack a third PP in a weapon, bumping THAC0 down TWO (2!!) points; and equipment/magic bonuses.

EXAMPLE 4: Assume the warrior in example 3 is a Fighter. At CLVL 3 he gets his third PP, which he stacks in Long Sword, to get 3 PP in sword. Using the formula for warriors with 3 PP or more in a weapon, the THAC0 for sword is: 21 - 3 ( - 4 - 0) = 114). 14 is not bad for a CLVL 3 character.

EXAMPLE 5: By the time the Fighter of Example 4 has advanced to CLVL 6 and acquired another PP, he should have at least a Long Bow (THAC0 +1) and may well have also acquired a Long Sword +2. If he stacks his PP in Bow, so as to have 3PP in Long Sword and 3 PP in Bow, he will have a THAC0 of 21 - 6 (- 4 - 2) = 15(9) in Long Sword, and 21 - 6 (- 4 - 1) = 14(10) in Bow. 9 and 10 are not bad at all.

EXAMPLE 6: What happens if this guy meets a boat load of skeletons and decides to use a crushing weapon, like Mace (for which he has no PP)? His THAC0 deteriorates from 9 to 21 - 6 (- 0 - 0) = 15(15) = 15. If he were in my party, he'd stick to using the sword. ESPECIALLY since one of his buddies, striving to thrive in the expansions by becoming a DC Fighter(12)/Cleric, is currently a CLVL 6 Fighter with THAC0 of about 15(9) in Mace; and another buddy, destined to be a DC Fighter(12)/Druid, is currently a CLVL 6 Fighter with about 15(10) in Flail!!

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 04-19-2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Midget Gems]

Sigh, some of us can only dream of numbers like that! On the bright side, at least we get the bonus to hit rolls from high Strength and Dexterity.