Well ... Dang (Spoilers)

[Dang]

I really enjoyed the first 3/4 or so of this game, but I am bitterly disappointed with the ending. Yes, I will probably play it again, but only because I am a fantasy RPG addict. Here are some of the reasons I completed this game in a state of non-joy.

1) Mario Bros: If I have to video-game jump to complete certain objectives, can I please not get stuck on objects for no good reason? Which leads to:

1a) 1000 click back out: Because of having to make jumps that, should I fail, necessitate me walking a long way back, I'm going to save before the jump just in case. So why, if I messed up do I have to: quit, quit, affirm I want to quit without saving, and if I actually want to quit the game I have to click at least 3 more buttons.

1b) Ridiculous stereotyping: Yeah, my Oomphaz is too fat to fit through that gap. I get it. It was funny the first zero times. My Ratling and Pixie are too short to hit the flying person. Haha.

2) Collasium: Even if I hadn't had a tough-guy Dwarf going through it with no breathing equipment, it would have aggravated me. And how was I suppose to know I had to have 2 gems to get the final shard? And why couldn't it be spelled right?

4) Game over classes: I guess this is supposed to make me want to play the game more, but ZM and Valk aren't even available until basically the last part of the last dungeon? Fun!

5) Sword of Xeen: The passing the sword technique was lame years ago. Hooray for revisiting it.

6) Crashes: I have seldom played a game that crashed so much for no apparent reason.

Sheesh. I am sorry to say this to all you W&W gurus, but I just had to get off my chest how bitterly disappointed I have been by the last section of this game!

[bsftcs]

Really, Dang, you should know better than to challenge a guru's foundation for their guruhood. No seriously, I have also had my moments of despair with this game. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dang]

Yeah, I really shouldn't post my deepest feelings at 2 am in the morning. I am now walking around tying up the quests I didn't finish (Shrew Chisi, Tome of ... well, one of the 4 Tomes). I should celebrate the good things about this game, of which there are many.

[Bungleau]

I'm with you, Dang. The majority of the game is very intriguing, but by the time I get to the end, I find myself saying "yeah, and...?" If the game had not been rushed to market, some of these issues probably would have been addressed.

I am curious about a couple of your comments...

Originally posted by Dang: 1) Mario Bros: If I have to video-game jump to complete certain objectives, can I please not get stuck on objects for no good reason? Which leads to: Which area was this? Getting the fire ward in the last spot in the shrine? Or someplace else? Or are you referring to tree-surfing? 1a) 1000 click back out: Because of having to make jumps that, should I fail, necessitate me walking a long way back, I'm going to save before the jump just in case. So why, if I messed up do I have to: quit, quit, affirm I want to quit without saving, and if I actually want to quit the game I have to click at least 3 more buttons. I appreciate a game that asks me if I really want to quit, but I tend to save first (because I never remember if the game really will, no matter how many times I've played it). But, yeah, it does take almost forever to leave... 1b) Ridiculous stereotyping: Yeah, my Oomphaz is too fat to fit through that gap. I get it. It was funny the first zero times. My Ratling and Pixie are too short to hit the flying person. Haha. I thought I only ran into that (too fat) in the underwaterpassage in the Serpent Temple (where I found it more than a wee bit annoying). Have you found it elsewhere? In the pyramid, perhaps? I do appreciate a game that realizes that a dagger from the back row just won't cut it, though... 2) Collasium: Even if I hadn't had a tough-guy Dwarf going through it with no breathing equipment, it would have aggravated me. And how was I suppose to know I had to have 2 gems to get the final shard? And why couldn't it be spelled right? LOL! I'm still not sure how to spell it! 4) Game over classes: I guess this is supposed to make me want to play the game more, but ZM and Valk aren't even available until basically the last part of the last dungeon? Fun! Yep, they show up too late for anything good (although the Den of Thieves appreciated the magic at the tail end). I would have liked them earlier, between Ishad N'ha and Brimloch Roon. 5) Sword of Xeen: The passing the sword technique was lame years ago. Hooray for revisiting it. I never bother passing the sword. Everyone attacks, and I know that the four without the black-fired weapons are going to miss every single time. It takes too long to kill him otherwise... and in any case... [img]smile.gif[/img] 6) Crashes: I have seldom played a game that crashed so much for no apparent reason. Patched or unpatched? Video compatibility has played hob with this game, and we've usually been successful in getting people to run it without problems. *sniff* I used to say we never met someone we couldn't help, but the last couple of brave souls have been far trickier... Sheesh. I am sorry to say this to all you W&W gurus, but I just had to get off my chest how bitterly disappointed I have been by the last section of this game!

To be fair, I really play the game for the first two-thirds. Everything after that ends up the same way (although I did join Cet once, just to see. Anephas isn't that tough... but he can only be hit by black-fired weapons as well). The variations in the first two-thirds of the game (solo warrior, solo rogue, all rogues, all cursed items, etc.) can make it challenging, but after a point, you become a god. I played MMIX with an all-knight party, just to see how it was. Easy pickin's... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, I'm glad you played it through, and I'm sad that you found the end disappointing (like so many others). I do hope you'll try one of the boutique games (solo warrior, etc.) and let us know how it goes. I know I'm learning things with every run-through... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dang]

Well, just so you know, I have already started 2 new parties, so I'm obviously hooked.

Responding to Bungleau

"1) Mario Bros: If I have to video-game jump to complete certain objectives, can I please not get stuck on objects for no good reason? Which leads to:
Which area was this? Getting the fire ward in the last spot in the shrine? Or someplace else? Or are you referring to tree-surfing?"

I can't remember any specific instances, but in several different areas I have managed to get stuck, sometimes on a wall, and not been able to get off. A lot of times the problem will be that my selected character is the Oomphaz, and if I switch to a Ratling or Pixie I can move again. Sometimes jumping fixes it. But there have been certain cases where I can't seem to get loose no matter what. The first time I remember this happening was in the Warrior's path in the Crypt.

I'm pretty sure it happened in the fiery area of Cet's Pyramid which is why it was in my mind when I ranted--I mean composed my carefully thought out post.

I haven't tried tree surfing, yet.

"1a) 1000 click back out: Because of having to make jumps that, should I fail, necessitate me walking a long way back, I'm going to save before the jump just in case. So why, if I messed up do I have to: quit, quit, affirm I want to quit without saving, and if I actually want to quit the game I have to click at least 3 more buttons.
I appreciate a game that asks me if I really want to quit, but I tend to save first (because I never remember if the game really will, no matter how many times I've played it). But, yeah, it does take almost forever to leave..."

Yeah, I was thinking about whether it would have been possible to make it easier without sacrificing the safety of not accidentally saving over a precious game, for example. (Sidenote: In Wizardry 8, this was a problem, as I once accidentally saved over a party near the end of the game with a brand new party--this was due to a bug in one part of the game, however--and also managed to save over an Ironman, only 1 save slot allowed, party with a newbie party--that one was my fault.) The only time the WiznWar save/quit features really bug me is in areas like the bridge puzzle in Skull Isle where missing a jump (which I do well--klutz) results in either having to walk a long way back, or reloading.

"1b) Ridiculous stereotyping: Yeah, my Oomphaz is too fat to fit through that gap. I get it. It was funny the first zero times. My Ratling and Pixie are too short to hit the flying person. Haha.
I thought I only ran into that (too fat) in the underwaterpassage in the Serpent Temple (where I found it more than a wee bit annoying). Have you found it elsewhere? In the pyramid, perhaps? I do appreciate a game that realizes that a dagger from the back row just won't cut it, though..."

Yeah, I have had a lot of situations where the Oomphaz (and sometimes a Human or Dwarf) got into an area and couldn't get out, but switching to another character worked. My Oomphaz had a lot of spell-casting duties and was also the IDer, so whenever possible I would have him loot a chest the Ratling had recently opened. Then I couldn't move. I think the problem mainly came from moving into an area with a smaller character, then switching to a larger one.

And you're right, it is impressive when your staff-wielder whacks somebody and then the dagger guy misses because you're too far back. It takes a while to get into the groove of how close is close enough, but I do appreciate that. I was just miffed because my Ratling Ninja was too short to hit Kerah, his spells didn't affect her, and I had arrogantly sold all this throwing weapons. "Bah, who needs these toys."

Something I have wondered about but not been sure; is there any correlation between order of characters added to the team and order in the walking party? Out of reflex I put fighters in the first 3 slots and mages in the last 3, but it doesn't seem to matter, and people seem to get attacked from behind with the same frequency. But I haven't really studied it. BTW, if I forget to at the bottom of the post, remind me to tell you about Tiger the Damage Magnet.

"2) Collasium: Even if I hadn't had a tough-guy Dwarf going through it with no breathing equipment, it would have aggravated me. And how was I suppose to know I had to have 2 gems to get the final shard? And why couldn't it be spelled right?
LOL! I'm still not sure how to spell it!"

I guess I was thinking it was supposed to be like the Roman Colosseum (although there are different ways to spell this, ancient and modern), and in fact I was expecting to get into a gladiatorial fight there. Then again, it almost looks like "Collapsium," and it did kind of "collapse" into the ocean. OK, I concede this one, I was just being crabby.

"4) Game over classes: I guess this is supposed to make me want to play the game more, but ZM and Valk aren't even available until basically the last part of the last dungeon? Fun!
Yep, they show up too late for anything good (although the Den of Thieves appreciated the magic at the tail end). I would have liked them earlier, between Ishad N'ha and Brimloch Roon."

Yeah, I mean when I got done I wanted to start whole new parties, not, for example, start over with these guys. Oh, well. I kind of wonder if the Valkyrie was one of those things that got cut short by the game being rushed to completion. I didn't get to use mine much, but she didn't seem all that "Super-Elite."

"5) Sword of Xeen: The passing the sword technique was lame years ago. Hooray for revisiting it.
I never bother passing the sword. Everyone attacks, and I know that the four without the black-fired weapons are going to miss every single time. It takes too long to kill him otherwise... and in any case... [Smile]"

The 4 without the black-fired weapons. Is this in a party of 6. If so, tell me more, because I appear to be a dunce.

I don't think I could have beat him without passing the sword. As it was 2 of my characters who were passing the sword got killed and the third managed to kill Cet after a few more swings.

"6) Crashes: I have seldom played a game that crashed so much for no apparent reason.
Patched or unpatched? Video compatibility has played hob with this game, and we've usually been successful in getting people to run it without problems. *sniff* I used to say we never met someone we couldn't help, but the last couple of brave souls have been far trickier..."

I got patched early on, after doing the crazy dance a couple times. I wasn't really interested in exploiting the bugs, anyway, so it seemed like the best thing to do. I have occasional crashes, and the thing that gets me is that they don't seem to have anything particularly in common. I'll just be walking (or running, or swimming along, and the game goes "boink" and freezes up. I have to Ctrl+Alt+Del to get out. Hmm, maybe I should try reading those error messages, but it's hard because I can only see about half of them, the rest is hidden behind the Windows Manager window. Well, next time I'll try to have the patience to read the message instead of just ending the program and restarting."

I do like the 3D aspect of the game pretty well, and pretty much every night I have at least one dream which is a 3D adventure game. I am also having a lot of fun in my new games. I've noticed that a lot of games (and mods for games) I've played recently have been more enjoyable for me in the beginning and middle than in the end. Maybe it's just that the point of the journey is not to arrive.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for responding. It's also nice to know that I am not the only one who's had some of these concerns.

[Bungleau]

Two new parties? Yep, you're done for. Wyv, get the *special* room ready. We're going to have another occupant... [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for your comment comments (or is that comment comment comments?)...

... I also hate that jumping sequence in the lava room before the Cet encounter. It's a royal PITA, and the treasure isn't worth it (certainly not at this stage of the game).

... As for the order, I'm not sure how it works. I thought the top character was first in line, but you can make anyone the lead, and that would mess up the line...

... Tell me about Tiger the Damage Magnet...

... IMHO, playing just the regular classes can make you an elite character. The other three don't add enough *special* things to the mix (other than the zenmaster's enlightenment) to make a difference. And Felix, I do respect the assassin... My second game (or was it third?) was a solo zenmaster... piece of cake.

... Yep, I had six characters in the party, one with the Mavin and one with the Staff of Death. I just kept attacking Cet, and he blocked the other four characters' attacks every single time. Since my first game, I've not had a problem with the Cet battle. I think it's because (a) he's too busy blocking to attack) and (b) when you're over 100% protected from fire, his firestorm can't do anything to you. No one has even come close to dying since then. Also, when you pass the sword, he can still move, so you're actually giving him more time to attack

... Check the messages next time it crashes. There may be something to do... or perhaps some other system maintenance can clean it up.

... And I know what you mean about dreams... occasionally, I find myself adventuring in the night

And finally, you're most welcome for the listening (and the responding). One of the things I like best about this board is that it's very open and friendly... since I started, and long before. I like to keep the trend going, and encourage you to do the same

[Dang]

So the Staff of Death can hurt Cet? Do you have to place it in the black fire? I don't think I tried it. Another funny story, I pretty much knew what the staff was from the time I got it, but it took me ages to get the gold to ID it (and Babar the Oomphaz was never a good enough artificer (?) to ID it himself.

Tiger was my Whiskas (yeah, I know, how imaginative!) Warrior turned Samurai. I'm not sure why initially, but he seemed to get attacked a lot, even though his presence was about the lowest in the party (I don't think it ever rose above 8) and he made have had a leadership of 1, but Narinia, the Warrior/Ranger/Paladin, and finally Valkyrie, had a much higher leadership and presence and hardly ever got attacked.

Well, to make matters worse, I foolishly decided to have Tiger get the Oath of Swords. This was a nuisance, but wasn't too bad for some time. The only death I'd had so far (because of reloading) was Ratzy the Ratling Thief, when I confronted the Highland Rogue Chief & Friends as I mentioned in my first thread. So no deaths that I felt it wasn't worth reloading for since the very beginning of the game.

So I get to the final island, I'm moving along quietly, and I run into the 3 headed hydra. I remember something about dropping rocks on it, but it's late, so I decide to see if I can kill it in hand-to-hand. I'm getting torn up, so I quit and go to bed. The next day I decide to give it another go, after casting every "buff" spell I have on the party. I'm about to go towards where I found the hydra when I get flamed from above. There's a red dragon attacking, so I start throwing spells at him. Ratzy is a Ninja at this point and hits him with Frost Breath. The dragon is paralyzed and fall on top of us. Somebody hits the dragon, it rises back into the sky, then Babar gazes with the Evil Eye. The dragon turns to stone and plummets to earth again.

Well, them there red dragons is worth some points, but I've never been able to damage a stone-d creature with weapons, just magic. So my guys fire their plentiful spells of all sorts until the dragon is shattered into millions of tiny pebbles. Yay! We took hardly any damage.

I proceed to attack the Hydra, who isn't that far off. He (or she, or it) has lots of hp, but we're getting some solid hits. No evil eye stoning, of course. Well, like any creature that uses magic, it automatically detects that Tiger is vulnerable to its attacks (but considering his luck, it might just have hit him anyway) and starts burning away his health. Now Babar can't try the evil eye or anything else because he's got to heal Tiger. And it takes him a really long time to recover to cast another spell, so Narinia decides she better heal Tiger, but just as I've switched from weapon to Great Heal (or Restore Health), too late! Tiger is dead. Well, I didn't save after defeating the dragon, and I don't see how I'm going to get through this fight, even reloading, without Tiger dying at least once. So when Babar's turn finally comes up, I figure I'll try this fancy schmancy "Rebirth" spell that I got just in case I might actually ever need it. Yay! Tiger lives again. And before the Hydra is dead, dies again, lives again, dies again, and lives again just in time to reap the xp rewards of the hydra's demise.

Tiger died and was reborn a few more times (as far as I can tell, the game doesn't keep track), but ironically, he was the one who survived Cet's fiery inferno and landed the killing blow. He gladly relinquished the Mavin; I guess he figured one curse ("Oath," indeed!) was enough!

[Bungleau]

LOL! I never go anywhere without a stack of rebirth scrolls... And no, the game doesn't keep track of how many times you've died.

BTW, neither Lady Tigra nor Stripes doesn't consider Tiger such a bad name after all...

Hmmm... Tiger... Babar... Ratzy... Narinia... Narinia?

One thing that may factor in... is Tiger in the first slot? Party damage (like walking into a fire) affects the first slot, while crush damage (doors, elevators, etc.) affects the last slot.

And yes, you do need to charge the Staff of Death in the Black Fire for it to affect Cet. Once it does, though... swing away!

[Wyvern]

Grin - I like this discussion.
For a game that has as many weaknesses as we all must admit W&W has, the fact that so many players have played the game over and over does speak for the things that were done right. It is a pity that the game ended up being rushed to market and a lot of the original design plans had to be compromised to get the game out the door. I believe most of our justified complaints about the game are all related to the design being cut short. Bradley has enough game design experience to know that throwing in zen master and valkyrie at the very last moments would be unsatisfying. He could have just opted to remove them entirely. I think he left them because he knew the game was worth replaying. Bugs like toads not getting out of the way or passages being too narrow for characters I'm sure he would have seen removed had he had the time to do so. Without any doubt it is the best flawed game I ever played and it's also a lot better than many games that were fully developed as planned.

Wyv

[Dang]

There may have been a semi-consciou Narnia theme, there. Not to mention that one of my new parties (the "evil" one) has a Swashbuckling Ratling named "Reepicreep."

Tiger was in the second slot. Bob One-Eye, the Dwarf Assassin, was in the first slot, and though retired he is still holding onto his Devil's Axe just in case that pesky Erasthmedor (sp?) comes after him. It was all the party could do to keep him from taking a swing when they met the ancient dragon face to face.

Hmm... maybe I should stop putting wimpy Wizards in the last slot. I thought Pixary was getting crushed just because everybody else kept accidentally stepping on her.

It seems like all the good games (that I want to play) nowadays get rushed to market. Drat! I have to admit despite the bugs it is totally awesome. Yesterday I was walking along and a pretty bird flew right in front of me. In the game AND in real life.