Dungeons & Dragons... Satans Game...

[Tybaltus]

First off, let me say that this thread has really been a treat to read!

I have feel I agree with everything Cerek has said. Im a Protestant/Christian (that has gotten hastled on other forums for defending Christianity) but I also have played Baldur's Gate from dusk till dawn over a couple months period (lets call it an old addiction [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). So I know both worlds.

My personal experience is that my parents and sister are all very strongly religious, while I am religious, I am not as avvid as they. When my brother started playing D&D, maybe 10 years ago, and when I got into Baldur's Gate and RPing, my parents didnt care at all. In fact, my father likes the fantasy involved in the D&D world, while he doesnt play it at all, he certainly does not object to it. So, thats my personal experience.

It was said earlier in the thread that ignorance and blind vision is really what leads people to think that certain things are more evil then they appear. Yes, I would have gone into this, but Im too late and it was already discussed...drats!

OK, now Im starting to ramble, so let me go to the topic that is currently discussed...

My brother-in-law told me that when he and his brothers and friends were getting into D&D, their father only had one rule. They had to play Good aligned characters. If anyone was caught playing Neutral or lower...that kid was banned from the game. Just a little background...in his teenage years, before the vietnam war...my father-in-law was aspiring to become a Baptist preacher. So you can see where he was coming from. I think that rule of his is a good one for children.

Yes, that is one way to go about it. But I would just aswell assume that children that are still learning about religion and what is right and wrong would stray away from something as influential as D&D...probably let them play when they reach teen years, when their mind has developed and they understand the difference of fantasy and reality. But that doesnt pose much of a problem as children before teen years probably wouldnt even be interested in D&D in the first place. Sort of like the whole Grand Theft Auto contraversy, when that game is released to matured people, that understand the stuff in that game cannot be applied to real life.

But thats really what it all is. Fantasy. This, in itself, must be realized, and fantasy is just that--fantasy. There is no religious ceremony or praise, just imagination and having fun.

Well, thats just my 2 cents. (With no rhyme nor reason )

-EDIT-

Well this is a matter of opinion Larry, some may say if they don't explore the darker side to life in a contained environment such as a game they will eventually do it IRL...drugs, violence etc. Light and dark exist and I think kids should embrace and accept both, then choose and act accordingly. Things tend to get messy when they are sheltered, shielded, censored and curtailed in their exposure. That said, there is a level of temperance involved in the amount of exposure and I believe that is what parenting is all about: asessing what they are ready for and when, rather than pretending it does not exist - just my two cents.

Well, I agree to an extent. I think they should accept and realize both...but embrace it? I dont know. But there is a difference between being educated of both worlds and exploring it. Sometimes exploration leads to interest, which could lead to actually doing it. But some would argue we are making a mountain out of a molehill. Yeah. Thats true in many cases. It all differs from one person to another. Every mind is different and every mind has a certain tolerance and understanding of certain things. Its all variable.

I agree that sheltering leads to bad things-ignorance is the biggest thing. We are all sheltered from some truth somewhere.

Well I certainly agree with your last statement:

That said, there is a level of temperance involved in the amount of exposure and I believe that is what parenting is all about: asessing what they are ready for and when, rather than pretending it does not exist

[ 12-23-2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Tybaltus ]

[Larry_OHF]

I think the spells do work for clerics. You pray for the deity to make things happen. Moses made the Red sea open up, made locusts attack the Egyptians, Joshua made the earth stand still which kept the sun in the sky longer, etc. All of these are very high-level faith wrought happenings. From the view of a person that did not know that God was making that stuff happen,,,they would look like spells or something.

Also, as far as the Druid goes, was it Elijah that had birds feed him while he was in hiding and Elisha the son of Shaphat was the one that summoned two bears to come out and rip some teenagers apart that were teasing him for being bald?

[Bungleau]

I agree with what has been said thus far, even with the viewpoints that are different from my own. One of the issues I have seen in many scenarios where something is banned as being bad (or evil) is a fear that the children are not sufficiently wise to recognize it as such, and therefore must be protected.

Now, with munchkins of my own, there are some things I just tell 'em we don't do. Like play with fire. Two weeks ago, the fire flared while I was putting a log on, and my arm hairs got singed off. No damage to me, but I made sure they each saw the results so they will have an appreciation for what can happen. So far, they pay attention... [img]smile.gif[/img]

At some point, however, you've got to stop making their decisions for them. I mean, sooner or later they're going to be adults and be ready to move out. Do you plan to keep running their lives after they leave? Some people do that... and frankly, it is nice to have someone else to make all the hard decisions and live with the consequences.

But sooner or later, that patriarch or matriarch will die... and then who leads? If no additional leader has been groomed, then a vacuum exists, and either things stay exactly the same (because no one knows enough to change), or they get worse (because no one else knows how to make decisions).

I don't believe it gets better, because I think that if there were someone coming up who could make decisions, they will have made the decision to leave much earlier on.

I also believe that the patriarch or matriarch (let's call 'em the MParch) tends to want to be in control, and will not willingly share the knowledge and abilities they have. Oh, they will share piecemeal, when it suits their purpose, but a wholescale passing on of knowledge? Never, because then why would you need them?

According to the Bible I've read (and I admit not being up to speed on other holy works), the humans are given the knowledge and skills to work things out for themselves, even if they end up hurting themselves in the process. Part of that "free will" thing involves making your own choices, even those that go against the will of the supreme being. Even those that go against the will of the MPArch. There's a certain story of a prodigal son... and a guy who tried to hide on a boat.... and more, if I put some gray matter to it.

So, where's the line between divine will and inspiration, and human interpretation and needs? I think some folks don't get it, and are eager to have someone else define it for them. Hence the proclamations from religious entities of this nature.

Personally, I try to make up my own mind with as much information as I can get. I read the first two Harry Potter books, specifically so I could get a sense of what they were about. I do get the sense of references to the occult and things of that nature, but it's more along the lines of things to be wary of. I don't get a sense that it's a good thing, but I do see that it's an enticing thing that can suck you in if you're not careful.

And I figure I want my kids to have a good BS detector so they can recognize stuff they need to be careful with. So far, it's worked with fire... now, perhaps, it's time to move on to more things.

Ah, well... enough on my nickel. Next?

[Chewbacca]

Hey folks,

I am treading lightly here with respect for the moratorium on religious discussion. I must say D&D has little in common with Pagan or Witch philosophy and religion.

First, First Demonology has nothing to do with Paganism or Witchcraft and little to do with the occult. It made me cringe a bit to see those words strung together in another post as it is a common misperception to link Witchcraft/Paganism with satan worship or demons and such.

We have no evil Dieties, devils, demons. Period. We are not mages, clerics, fighters, or rogues. We do not commit spiritual warfare. No such thing as supernatural evil in typical Witch/Pagan beleifs, just a God(s) and Goddess(s).

Some Pagan cultures do enjoy storytelling as a communal past-time and in this sense D&D shares something in common with some pagan cultures.

There are other similarities, most of which are a matter of semantics (D&D has magic, Witches practice magic-aside from sharing the same word the concepts are apples and oranges. One is part of fantasy storytelling, the other is used for self-growth, healing and improvement.)

Anway, there is no need to go any deeper into the differences, but my point was that Pagan beliefs and practice... ( I am a Witch and have been for many years- I played/Dm'd D&D first (still do every week) and it in no way led me to exploring Pagan beleifs or occult practices, you can blame the bookstore and library for me being a pagan if you want ) ...are a far cry from fantasy roleplaying religion and magic. Apples and oranges.

Any further queries about Paganism I will happily take in PM with respect to the moratorium on religious topics. My consciense demanded I at least speak truthfully about my path so as to help dispel misconceptions about it. I hope doing so isn't taken as an attack or as disrespect toward anyone or towards the forum rules. [img]smile.gif[/img]



Oh yeah...on-topic
My gaming circle includes several Christians who are also good and longtime friends of mine. From our discussions on this topic they agree with me that D&D is an exercise in creativity, teamwork, stragedy and morality. Don't let a few "bad" apples spoil the bunch I say! [img]smile.gif[/img]