A victory for human rights.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: I can buy that logic with a question: Is one persons personal discomfort more important than anothers career and livelyhood?

Until we've gotten more over our Puritanical roots than we currently have, I'd say it's a concern.

Howsabout this: Is telling everyone exactly how you like your sex so integral to your character that you are willing to give up your career and livelihood? Look, tell you what, you don't tell me about your bedroom behavior, and I won't tell you about my Little Red Riding Hood outfit, okay?

Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: My problem with some of the logic to defend don't ask don't tell is this: It is okay to ogle my naked butt in the shower if I don't know your gay, but it is not okay to ogle my naked butt if I know your are gay? I am truly at a lose for the difference here, other than the cop-out idea that ignorance is bliss.

Chewie, speaking as one person who had to do it. I can say it is far far easier to put it out of your mind when you don't know for absolute surety that the guy is actually checking you out....and he better not show signs of arousal.
[/QUOTE]I can buy that logic with a question: Is one persons personal discomfort more important than anothers career and livelyhood? [/QUOTE]
In possible combat situations "ABSOFRIGGENLUTLEY" You must be COHESIVE with NO disention or tension. Is one gay mans rights more important than then entire Company's combat effectiveness? I don't think so. Some day when all men and women are treated and viewed as equal in all other areas of human life, then and only then should you mess with your combat units. And sorry to say..this is why Women should not be in combat units. Remember the bulk of those units are still in high hormone age groups.

Oh and AMEN to TL's last post [img]smile.gif[/img] I don't want anyone to know about my riding hood any way....nor the french Swedish maid outfit....

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I can buy that logic with a question: Is one persons personal discomfort more important than anothers career and livelyhood?

Until we've gotten more over our Puritanical roots than we currently have, I'd say it's a concern.

Howsabout this: Is telling everyone exactly how you like your sex so integral to your character that you are willing to give up your career and livelihood? Look, tell you what, you don't tell me about your bedroom behavior, and I won't tell you about my Little Red Riding Hood outfit, okay? [/QUOTE]What about the "don't tellers" who are outed by other people, sometimes for reasons of exteme prejudice, or sometimes for being at the wrong place at the wrong time? This is how most gays are outed in the military, isnt it? It's not like they are trying to have a drag-queen parade around the base or anything.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Timber Loftis, let's watch the perjorative and derogatory catchphrases or names, please!

Of course I was just playing, Ms. Bringer -- or is that going to be Mrs. Bringer soon? How about soon-to-be-Mrs. Bringer?

Anywho, many years of living with gays, going to gay bars, knowing tons of drag queens, and helping write pro-gay laws have made me a bit loose and fast with the subject. All apologies. It's funny because I have to struggle to say "gay" or "homosexual" instead of "fag" (or "girl") all the time, because it's so hard not to use the very words the culture itself uses to refer to its members. [/QUOTE]I understand, TL. [img]smile.gif[/img] Just keeping it family-rated.

Won't be "Mrs" til next May.

Now about this Little Red Riding Hood fetish.... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: My problem with some of the logic to defend don't ask don't tell is this: It is okay to ogle my naked butt in the shower if I don't know your gay, but it is not okay to ogle my naked butt if I know your are gay? I am truly at a lose for the difference here, other than the cop-out idea that ignorance is bliss.

Chewie, speaking as one person who had to do it. I can say it is far far easier to put it out of your mind when you don't know for absolute surety that the guy is actually checking you out....and he better not show signs of arousal.
[/QUOTE]I can buy that logic with a question: Is one persons personal discomfort more important than anothers career and livelyhood? [/QUOTE]
In possible combat situations "ABSOFRIGGENLUTLEY" You must be COHESIVE with NO disention or tension. Is one gay mans rights more important than then entire Company's combat effectiveness? I don't think so. Some day when all men and women are treated and viewed as equal in all other areas of human life, then and only then should you mess with your combat units. And sorry to say..this is why Women should not be in combat units. Remember the bulk of those units are still in high hormone age groups.
[/QUOTE]Hmm I wasnt thinking about combat situations or effectiveness per se, thats an entirely other can of worms.

I have yet to see any hard proof that combat effectiveness would be lowered other than a few testimonials and some specualtion, some of which do make sense but also only seem to focus on the potential negatives of intimate relationships and leaves no room for people to adopt professional roles that are seperate from their private ones.

Edit: assuming that being a professional and falling back to training is waht being a soldier is all about in combat situations.

[ 07-01-2003, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: What about the "don't tellers" who are outed by other people, sometimes for reasons of exteme prejudice, or sometimes for being at the wrong place at the wrong time? This is how most gays are outed in the military, isnt it? It's not like they are trying to have a drag-queen parade around the base or anything.

Then perhaps someone was not quite discreet enough? If you have a secret to keep, whos responsibility is it to safeguard? Yours? or some other persons?
Personal Responsibility is also another trait highly valued in the military.
I know it sounds harsh, but dammit war is not for cuddles and warm fuzzies.

I understand your probing and questioning, because you ask good questions. But what sometimes gets forgotten, is that there are some dang good reasons for things.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: What about the "don't tellers" who are outed by other people, sometimes for reasons of exteme prejudice, or sometimes for being at the wrong place at the wrong time? This is how most gays are outed in the military, isnt it? It's not like they are trying to have a drag-queen parade around the base or anything.

No se. Perhaps some of our military folks can tell us what would happen.

Look, there is always the problem that you cannot legislate that people like each other. In the end, all of these rights are vis-a-vis the government, and not your fellow workers (unless it is a government job and they are your boss). Therefore, the real reason people likely leave the military after being "outed" is not due to being fired or discharged, but rather because the become a pariah among their peers.

In the workplace, let us assume the sexual harrassment laws were changed to include such discrimination (as I think they are in gay rights states like Mass. Hawaii and Vt.). In such a case, the worker would have to prove his bosses harrassed him or prove that the ENTIRE office (basically) provided a working environment that was harassing to the worker. A difficult thing to prove, usually requiring numerous *provable* lewd comments and innuendos by numerous co-workers, with managements assent (i.e. without management trying to stop it).

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Hmm I wasnt thinking about combat situations or effectiveness per se, thats an entirely other can of worms. I have yet to see any hard proof that combat effectiveness would be lowered other than a few testimonials and some specualtion, some of which do make sense but also only seem to focus on the potential negatives of intimate relationships and leaves no room for people to adopt professional roles that are seperate from their private ones. Edit: assuming that being a professional and falling back to training is waht being a soldier is all about in combat situations.

Sounds like the only way you will believe it is to live the life. If you are unwilling to take the testimony of thousands who have served and are serving as proof of concept, then you have only personal experience to rely on. Join up and serve for 4,6 or 10 years [img]smile.gif[/img] Gays are not a large percentageof our population, this is fact. They also do not make up a large portion of our armed services. It does not make sense to risk unit integrity in order to make someone comfy with banging their own gender. It is simply a social experiment that should not be carriedout in the military....in my opinion.
Like I said. Onc eyou get it right in the rest of civilization then maybe you can try it in the anti-civilization that is war.

[Chewbacca]

Thanks Timber Loftis and MagiK for the meaningful banter and some real good replies to my questions.

Our discourse only proves to me that this issue is far from black and white and that questions still remain unanswered and theories untested in the long struggle to achieve for all people the ideals of the document I have put inside my signature.

Peace!