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Old 10-08-2001, 11:54 PM   #11
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by 250:
that reduces hatred to a minimum amount. we dont have other choices. we have to stop terroism, and we can do it at a cost of minimized life losing. and we are doing it right now
I disagree. We always have other choices. How much is one life worth anyway?
And I do not discern a clear cause and effect relationship between the military actions and the end of terrorism. Though we may cull a generation of terrorists of some of its leaders, more will rise to the occasion in future generations, with reinforced hatred of the west. Therefore I do see a causual relationship that will escalate hostilities in the short term and long term. Push fanantics to fanatical acts with renewed vigour. Better to die a suicide bomber than by a yankee bullet. But I'm just thinking things through, not predicting the future.
 
Old 10-09-2001, 12:02 AM   #12
250
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 42
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by G'kar:
I disagree. We always have other choices. How much is one life worth anyway?
And I do not discern a clear cause and effect relationship between the military actions and the end of terrorism. Though we may cull a generation of terrorists of some of its leaders, more will rise to the occasion in future generations, with reinforced hatred of the west. Therefore I do see a causual relationship that will escalate hostilities in the short term and long term. Push fanantics to fanatical acts with renewed vigour. Better to die a suicide bomber than by a yankee bullet. But I'm just thinking things through, not predicting the future.
we do have other choices, but are they the best choices?

we've told them to hand over bin Laden
we've warned them
we've expressed our goal is to eliminate terroism
we've sent help for the casualties

what else should we do? negotiate? it only ensures bin Laden's personal victory, therefore, creates more obstacles in the walk of peace

bin Laden is like this dog that is not afraid to bite. we must somehow get rid of him before we can reach where we want to go.

it is true that some innocents are caught in the cross fire. but that hardly means we are not being responsible. we sent help, that IS a prove that we are taking the responsibility seriously, unlike Taliban, who is also responsible for the death of their people, did nothing but to continuously hiding.

edit: bin Laden is like this loose mad dog...

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-09-2001).]
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:07 AM   #13
SSJ4Sephiroth
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Join Date: May 4, 2001
Location: The Outside Looking In
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Posts: 4,361
if we dont strike now, then what? do we wait for him to attack again, to take more lives to hit him back? will we just sit here, and let his terror continue without opposition, until he has everyone in a blanket of fear? we have to hit him sometime, or we will become his puppets no matter what we do.

------------------
It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha, ha, ha. And at the center of that injury, wil be me. All that boundless energy will be mine. By merging with the energy of the Planet, I will be come a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet, I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every living soul.


What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings now? Ha, ha, ha... Stop acting as if you're sad. And there's no need to act as if you're angry either. Because, Cloud, you are... a puppet.

Super Sephiroth, slayer of the Uber Fluffy, and battle co-ordionator and defender of the HADB clan.
Follower of the mighty Fallen Paladin himself.
Diplomacy is all and well, but HADB is better!
Head of the IronWorks Intelligence Division
Official Soup Server and bumper of Cloudy's Cafe
Possessor of the Aerie Diamond Head from the ALSB.
Page in the Court of Lady Lioness

Stalking the woodlands,
the Lioness in my sight,
warm feelings doth come,
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:09 AM   #14
250
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
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Quote:
Originally posted by SSJ4Sephiroth:
if we dont strike now, then what? do we wait for him to attack again, to take more lives to hit him back? will we just sit here, and let his terror continue without opposition, until he has everyone in a blanket of fear? we have to hit him sometime, or we will become his puppets no matter what we do.


yeah, less people will die if we attack now

it is only responsible to take actions
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:13 AM   #15
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by 250:
we do have other choices, but are they the best choices?

we've told them to hand over bin Laden
we've warned them
we've expressed our goal is to eliminate terroism
we've sent help for the casualties

what else should we do? negotiate? it only ensures bin Laden's personal victory, therefore, creates more obstacles in the walk of peace

bin Laden is like this dog that is not afraid to bite. we must somehow get rid of him before we can reach where we want to go.

it is true that some innocents are caught in the cross fire. but that hardly means we are not being responsible. we sent help, that IS a prove that we are taking the responsibility seriously, unlike Taliban, who is also responsible for the death of their people, did nothing but to continuously hiding.

Well, we decide whether or not a desicion is the best or more correct based on it consequences. Address the consequences I have outlined in my previous post, and provide more favorable ones based on the current course of action. and be realistic.

BTW-We've provided food to Afganistan, before and during the Taliban,for years, its nothing new.
 
Old 10-09-2001, 12:18 AM   #16
250
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 42
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by G'kar:


BTW-We've provided food to Afganistan, before and during the Taliban,for years, its nothing new.
the purpose is different

if you disagree with the action, then come up with more constructive ones. now stop whinning. if we are all to sit around and look for spiritual growth instead of taking life out of those dogs who bite, we will all be dead poets
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:23 AM   #17
SSJ4Sephiroth
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Posts: 4,361
yes G'kar, we may have, but we also supported Osama during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

and 250 is right, action is required in most cases instead of spiritual growth. i'm a Christian myself, but i believe that action will save more lives in the long run than inaction. when you think about it, Osama has killed MANY more people than the common people that we will take down as collateral damage. you cant save everybody, and when you try you end up saving nobody, and even letting more die.

------------------
It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha, ha, ha. And at the center of that injury, wil be me. All that boundless energy will be mine. By merging with the energy of the Planet, I will be come a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet, I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every living soul.


What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings now? Ha, ha, ha... Stop acting as if you're sad. And there's no need to act as if you're angry either. Because, Cloud, you are... a puppet.

Super Sephiroth, slayer of the Uber Fluffy, and battle co-ordionator and defender of the HADB clan.
Follower of the mighty Fallen Paladin himself.
Diplomacy is all and well, but HADB is better!
Head of the IronWorks Intelligence Division
Official Soup Server and bumper of Cloudy's Cafe
Possessor of the Aerie Diamond Head from the ALSB.
Page in the Court of Lady Lioness

Stalking the woodlands,
the Lioness in my sight,
warm feelings doth come,
into my lonely heart
SSJ4Sephiroth is offline  
Old 10-09-2001, 12:23 AM   #18
AzureWolf
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Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: .
Age: 40
Posts: 2,762
Quote:
Originally posted by G'kar:
I disagree. We always have other choices. How much is one life worth anyway?
And I do not discern a clear cause and effect relationship between the military actions and the end of terrorism. Though we may cull a generation of terrorists of some of its leaders, more will rise to the occasion in future generations, with reinforced hatred of the west. Therefore I do see a causual relationship that will escalate hostilities in the short term and long term. Push fanantics to fanatical acts with renewed vigour. Better to die a suicide bomber than by a yankee bullet. But I'm just thinking things through, not predicting the future.
I will repost my earlier statement as I think it ties in with what you have said.

Quote:
Originally posted by AzureWolf:
I am only going to say this as I am tired of arguing with people about it.
War in any form in a horrible thing.
It ruins the lives of everyone in the community as well as taking the lives of innocents who do not wish to be involved but their rights have been discounted and they have no choice in the matter.

War begets war.

This is a war of attrition that the US cannot hope to win. Each time the "Free World" wins a military victory they may have won a battle but they have just gone one step closer in losing the war. It is pure arrogance to think you can wipe out something like terroism. It is not an object you can destroy!

It is an Idea!

An any who think in any way from my statements that i support Terroism are wrong. I am simply trying to open some eyes to the bigger picture around you. Ideas are carried on even after the creators are dead. Do you think that if you destroy Osama Bin Laden and his terroists that it is going to be a blow to terroism? Others will take up the mantle and use this war as an example of Western corruption.

And secondly the idea that this war is to stop terroists from attacking us again? That IMO is utter bullshit and a cowardly coverup to explain why the US should take revenge with military might. Again it will not stop terroists but incite them as has already been proved by Osama declaring Jihad on the US.
And for those of you who have ranted about how the Taliban regieme(sp?) has spread propaganda against the US, that is true. Do not the Taliban try and made fanatics out of Afgahni's by telling them about the Wests corruption?

Now Stop

And think. Is this not what just what America is doing? Are not President Bush's "emotional" speeches just like the Talibans? They are both trying to use patriotism to their advantage to get more power. Ask yourself, if the people of the US were not so patriotic about their country could this military strike have happened so suddenly and ruthlessly?
(This is NOT Yank Bashing im just trying to give a new perspective)

------------------

"I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..."

Overlord of all that I behold and anything that i happen to not notice either.

Founding Hamlet of the HADB.
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:28 AM   #19
250
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 42
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by SSJ4Sephiroth:
yes G'kar, we may have, but we also supported Osama during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

and 250 is right, action is required in most cases instead of spiritual growth. i'm a Christian myself, but i believe that action will save more lives in the long run than inaction. when you think about it, Osama has killed MANY more people than the common people that we will take down as collateral damage. you cant save everybody, and when you try you end up saving nobody, and even letting more die.

or dead christians, in your case

rofl!
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Old 10-09-2001, 12:33 AM   #20
G'kar
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Quote:
Originally posted by 250:
the purpose is different

if you disagree with the action, then come up with more constructive ones. now stop whinning. if we are all to sit around and look for spiritual growth instead of taking life out of those dogs who bite, we will all be dead poets
or ever-living saints.

Whining, hmmm I guess I wont get any reasonable dicourse from you either.
 
 


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