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Old 12-05-2004, 03:04 PM   #41
Illumina Drathiran'ar
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Imoen's arrest is lawful because the organization in charge of the laws says it's lawful. That doesn't make it *right* or *just* or fair or good. It simply makes it within the law.
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Old 12-05-2004, 04:42 PM   #42
SixOfSpades
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek:
Are there any Mods out there that actually explore or develop these various alternatives?
Not yet. The Cowled Wizard path is in production, in a mod called The Third Way and perhaps another mod working independently, but I don't think either of those involve the Lawful Neutral / Neutral Evil split within the CW's ranks. The Harper, Zhentarim, and Wizard Slayer paths are just stuff that I made up.

[ADD:]Imoen also fires a Magic Missile at Irenicus when the Cowled Wizards are attacking him too. So the fact that they arrest her makes it even more of a "Do as we say, not as we do" affair.

[ 12-05-2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]
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Old 12-08-2004, 01:05 AM   #43
Malthaussen
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If Amnish law includes the principle that "ignorance of the law is no excuse," as in US law, then Immy's arrest is perfectly lawful. Which has always led me to think that a truly lawful character would have a difficult time justifying going up against the CW to free her in the first place. Of course, since there's no game if you don't, the question is moot, but this is another case in which the plot and the alignment rules conflict.

It appears from the back-and-forth surrounding the Planar Sphere that the CW are, in fact, split into factions. Since the CW acquiesce in a mage PC taking over the Sphere despite his killing of Tolgerias and flunky, with only a few grumbles, it would seem that the CW are prepared to disavow Tolgerias's actions. Exploiting this possible split for a "third way" is a good idea, but it doesn't really satisfy the wish for a "good" alternative.

The corruption of the CW is not a factor in the "good" organizations deciding whether or not to help the PC. Nor, if Immy's arrest were illegal, would that be a factor. Pourquoi? Because the corruption has been going on a long, long time and the RH and good religions haven't done doo-dad about it. Do you really think the PC is the first guy to go to the church of Lathandar and whine "my friend was taken by the Cowled Wizards, O woe is I, please help?" Why would they act any differently THIS time? D'you think you're special?

The Harpers are also, clearly, split, and might present the only way to provide a reasonably "good" alternative to the others. As discussed above, it would require separating the Spellhold plot thread from the get-the-PC thread. I really can't think of a persuasive way to do this, off the top of my head, without seriously altering the latter plot line, though.

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Old 12-08-2004, 04:16 AM   #44
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What is the "get the PC" thread anyway?

Hell, you could just say that the Harpers would be interested in eradicating Jonny anyway, because he's meddling in the affairs of an evil evil dead god. The Harpers would help you so you would be able to help them kill Jonny, and thus make the world a better place to live.
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Old 12-08-2004, 08:32 PM   #45
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Riftmaker, I think that "get the PC" means the Jahiera's "rogue Harper" subplot.
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Old 12-08-2004, 09:30 PM   #46
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That is why we don't tie it to Jaheira's plot!!! How many times do I have to keep saying that?

It's a whole different kettle of worms tied to the guy that gets poisoned on the side of the road with those thugs. You take him back, do the little harper quest, and after that you are offered an oppurtunity to work with them (or for them) and they will provide you passage to Spellhold in the form of Saemon Haevarian.

That has to be the 3rd time I've said that.
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Old 12-09-2004, 12:29 AM   #47
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Riftmaker's summary is quite good except for one bit of misinformation: Harpers aren't good. Note that they promote balance - paraphrasing a harper in the Galvarey estate . They are conservatives in that they believe the extremes of good and evil to be bad in general. This makes them neutral, and probably true neutral (although possibly lawful neutral: as I've said before, "Lawful" is "folowing a strict doctrine", not necesarily "following the laws of the land"). But here would be their ticket in: Jon is a powerful evil. Once they are convinced of that, they can also be convinced that this means he has to be destroyed.

Six, Third Way won't be dealing with the cowled wizards, as such. G3's Perils of Wisdom does, however.
The main reason both are idle at the moment is a lack of ideas, although this thread is giving me some. One post in particular I found quite interesting... which means, essentially, that Third Way will be restarted in January, as soon as the Limbo site is open.
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Old 12-09-2004, 01:27 AM   #48
Illumina Drathiran'ar
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They promote balance between law and chaos, nature and civilization, and while some members might be neutral, the organization as a whole leans towards good.
To borrow from the Harper Code: "[Harpers] work against villainy and wickedness, keep folk free of fear and tyranny, support law and order to gain peace wherever laws are just and fairly enforced, and to prevent extremes of power and influence and imbalances of wealth and opportunity."
That's not just nonevil, that's good.
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Old 12-09-2004, 09:12 AM   #49
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But, if say, a truely powerful and immensly strong being of virtue and good was to rise up. A force that had enough power to make all evil fear it, would the Harpers work with it, or work against it as it threatened the balance?

I was under the impression that Harpers, would choose to work AGAINST such a force of good as it threatens the balance between good and evil. Now even though they fight against the good, doesnt mean they are evil, it means they are evening out the scales. So, ergo, the same would apply when they fight against evil would it not? They are not trying to be good, they are trying to keep the balance? But, as is usually the case, evil is always present, and almost always outways the good in the world, which is why the Harpers are usually seen fighting against it.

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Old 12-09-2004, 10:10 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by LennonCook:

Six, Third Way won't be dealing with the cowled wizards, as such. G3's Perils of Wisdom does, however.
The main reason both are idle at the moment is a lack of ideas, although this thread is giving me some. One post in particular I found quite interesting... which means, essentially, that Third Way will be restarted in January, as soon as the Limbo site is open.
Pray tell, who was this noble soul you got the idea from?
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