The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[onthepequod]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Some of you have stated that Eve was to blame or Adam was to blame. In their complete innocence, neither one can be blamed. What is innocence? When I look at my one year old...I see innocence. If she were to grab a table, knock it over, and brake a vase that was upon it, would I punish her? No. She did not know what would be the outcome of her attempt at exploration. So you ask, why did God throw them out of the Garden? Because they were in the presence of God in the garden, and even though they were tricked by Satan...they were now counted as unclean, so they could no more enjoy the communion with God (ie. live in his presence.)

I would disagree. I believe neither Adam nor Eve were innocent. God created them as adults with complete ability to reason and gave them one instruction from an omnipotent, omniscient creator. You may reason that if you tell a very young child "no" and that child disobeys your wishes, he/she is innocent(I do not fully subscribe to this myself). However, this is different for adults who can reason. Granted they were not aware of what the outcome would be but they were aware that an all powerful creator told them not to. They were guilty of disobedience. There is no way around it. And that was their fault. Do not get me wrong, I am not saying that Satan had no part in it but that Adam and Eve were not innocent.



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[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by 250: I am not christian, and I know little why is there a God? why does he create the world? why does he care? he creates human just so that humans can suffer, moan, progress and accept his love? why does he care? If he is so mighty, surely there is no reason for him to create us? and why and what does it mean that he loves us? we could never existed, and it wouldn't matter to anyone because he is the God right? anyone explain this to me? Yorick? Larry?

I could answer all these questions, and lay more out on the table than you even asked for, detailing where we came from, why are we here, and where are we going, but I would be typing for a very long time to somebody that still would want to find proof against it all.
I see people on here everyday, typing up books of information to prove their point, (usually on political debates), but it never helps, because there is always more questions and more dis-belief.
If I knew that anyone was seriously interested, without trying to prove me wrong with equal amounts of quotes and philosophy, I would pour out my soul on these little keys and testify to you of all the wonders I have been a part of. Sorry, I am just afraid you would reject what I would say. But I do understand your side of it. I was there, 7 years ago.


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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[250]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Originally posted by 250: I am not christian, and I know little why is there a God? why does he create the world? why does he care? he creates human just so that humans can suffer, moan, progress and accept his love? why does he care? If he is so mighty, surely there is no reason for him to create us? and why and what does it mean that he loves us? we could never existed, and it wouldn't matter to anyone because he is the God right? anyone explain this to me? Yorick? Larry? I could answer all these questions, and lay more out on the table than you even asked for, detailing where we came from, why are we here, and where are we going, but I would be typing for a very long time to somebody that still would want to find proof against it all. I see people on here everyday, typing up books of information to prove their point, (usually on political debates), but it never helps, because there is always more questions and more dis-belief. If I knew that anyone was seriously interested, without trying to prove me wrong with equal amounts of quotes and philosophy, I would pour out my soul on these little keys and testify to you of all the wonders I have been a part of. Sorry, I am just afraid you would reject what I would say. But I do understand your side of it. I was there, 7 years ago.

whatever man, how do you know which side I am on if you are not even trying? are you seriously expecting me to accept everything you say without questioning and possibly rejecting? then this kinda knowledge I gain is not only useless but also pointless. keep it to yourself

Yorick?

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by onthepequod: I would disagree. I believe neither Adam nor Eve were innocent. God created them as adults with complete ability to reason and gave them one instruction from an omnipotent, omniscient creator. You may reason that if you tell a very young child "no" and that child disobeys your wishes, he/she is innocent(I do not fully subscribe to this myself). However, this is different for adults who can reason. Granted they were not aware of what the outcome would be but they were aware that an all powerful creator told them not to. They were guilty of disobedience. There is no way around it. And that was their fault. Do not get me wrong, I am not saying that Satan had no part in it but that Adam and Eve were not innocent.

The tree of Good & Evil gave Adam and Eve knowledge of right from wrong.
Innocence is termed as not understanding right from wrong.
Before they partook of the fruit, they were innocent.
Even if they transgressed a law, they had no understanding that it was a bad thing.
They did not understand wrong doing, because they had not yet partaken.
After they had, they clothed themselves, and hid from God's view, as they then realized they made a boo-boo, not before.


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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 09-08-2001).]

[onthepequod]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: The tree of Good & Evil gave Adam and Eve knowledge of right from wrong. Innocence is termed as not understanding right from wrong. Before they partook of the fruit, they were innocent. Even if they transgressed a law, they had no understanding that it was a bad thing. They did not understand worng doing, because they had not yet partaken. After they had, they clothed themselves, and hid from God's view, as they thenm realized they made a boo-boo, not before.

Prior to partaking from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil Adam and Eve did not have an understanding of good and evil but they did understand that they were commanded not to eat from that tree. Just because they did not conceptually understand good and evil does not mean they were not disobedient. And consequently they were to blame for their disobedience. Their sin was not a premeditated evil but one of purposeful disobedience to their creator. Because they did not have a concept of evil does not mean they could not transgress God's command.

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[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by 250: whatever man, how do you know which side I am on if you are not even trying? are you seriously expecting me to accept everything you say without questioning and possibly rejecting? then this kinda knowledge I gain is not only useless but also pointless. keep it to yourself

In your anger, you did not fully explain your thoughts here.

You mentioned that you do not believe in christianity, then later mention that I should not prejudge which side you are on...that is contradictory.
Also,
I did not ask for anyone to believe me, either. I, of myself can teach nothing. I can share information that I have learned, and the Spirit of Truth, mentioned in John can confirm the truth, using the fruits of the Spirit, mentioned in Galations.
The problem between your thread and mine is that I have spoken to people that have asked me the same questions that you did, when I served a mission to Mexico. They asked those questions to try and "trip me up", or make me stumble in my words...thus convincing themselves that they were right. If I knew that your intentions were to really learn, and not to try to win some sort of game against me, I would actually attempt to share the Plan of Salvation with you. But you have to open your heart to the Spirit to gain anything from what I would say(or anyone else, for that matter), and not be so defensive.
In short, God loves us because He is our dad, and dads care


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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
---------------------
Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[This message has been edited by Larry_OHF (edited 09-08-2001).]

[Ladyzekke]

Originally posted by 250: I am not christian, and I know little why is there a God? why does he create the world? why does he care? he creates human just so that humans can suffer, moan, progress and accept his love? why does he care? If he is so mighty, surely there is no reason for him to create us? and why and what does it mean that he loves us? we could never existed, and it wouldn't matter to anyone because he is the God right? anyone explain this to me? Yorick? Larry? [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 09-08-2001).]

Well 250, I am a Christian as well, but I have many questions that are always in my head much like yours. Why would God create us? Well, to figure that out, you have to think, were we created and existing already before we were born on this Earth? I have an inkling that we may have existed before we were born. And that we were put on this Earth to learn certain lessons to perfect ourselves. Sometimes these lessons may seem unfair or harsh, but if you look closely, there ARE things that are gained even from the direst of circumstances. For instance, say, you are a spirit, not born yet, and you had this ONE flaw. Say this flaw was being power hungry, thinking you can rise above others and lead things your way, not caring about others who may be weaker, for whatever reason that may be. Well, say God decided to have you be born onto the Earth as a cripple. Or maybe you would be OK until later in life, wherein you fall off a ladder or something and become a parapellegic (sp?). Well what would happen to you then? I think that in time, being unable to move, and having absolutely NO power, relying on others to help you with the simplist tasks, would change you. Power would eventually mean NOTHING to you, respect and gratefulness for others that helped you would be the dominant feeling, e.g. your lesson would be learned. I could use SOOO many other examples on this particular concept, this is merely One. Again, who knows if I am right or wrong, just a pondering thought that I have always had when I think of why some horrible things happen to people, when God is supposed to be so loving. I try to think of reasons, and that is what I came up with, so far.

As for how we came to exist as spirits even BEFORE we were born on this Earth, or even now GOD came to exist, is something I think that is beyond our comprehension as mere humans.

On another note, when you say "Why does God love us"?, well, I have wondered that myself over many years. Still don't know why, but I one day unexpectedly thought about what it must be like if you were God believe it or not. One day I came home from work, and was surfing the cable TV channels (I know this sounds lame, but...). Anyway, came across this Tom Sawyer story, being played out in Claymation. Now, to be honest, I HATE claymation, creeps me out man!! God I can't stand to watch even a second of it! But I turned it on and was doing exercises, and just at the time didn't want to stop to change the channel. So I listened and watched this thing. When I tuned in, it was at this part where Tom Sawyer was standing there talking to the Devil. The Devil said, "Here, look at my power, I can create people" and he waved his hand and there was this little miniature tiny town, with buildings and tiny people wandering around. They were all smiling and friendly towards eachother. Well, Tom Sawyer was just so enamoured of these little people, smiling and watching them, as you, the viewer, were also doing. Then the Devil said "here, I can add more" and zapped in this cow in the middle of the people. Well, at first, the people all looked at the cow in amazement and wonder and happiness, smiling from ear to ear and squeaking happily about it. THEN... Things changed... One person grabbed the cow and started pulling it to the left, as if to take it for himself. Then another one on the right of the cow also started pulling with the same intent. Then the two started arguing, and their ugly claymation faces took on a hideous evil look. Next thing you know, the whole crowd of little miniature people are fighting over this cow, and pulling it and pulling it this way and that until they actually ended up killing the cow, splitting it in half. At that point, the Devil frowns in a very exaggerated fashion at these people for what they did, pissed him off apparently, as his gift ended up destroyed in greed. So then he looks at Tom Sawyer, and makes a hideous grin, and slams his huge fist on top of all the little miniature people, thus destroying them all. He then looks at Tom Sawyer and says something like "No worries, I can always make more, no loss."

Makes you think that God could do the same thing. Imagine creating a species, in love, and watching them fight eachother and hate eachother, if it was me I would do the same thing! I would say "these people are hopeless", start over... But God does not do that, so he MUST love us, and thinks that we are worth keeping, that we can still grow and learn. Maybe someday things will change, just takes time with us humans is all. All I know, with what we have done as humans as a whole, makes me feel again, like God must love us, as we (again as a Whole here as humans all over the world) must seem very dissappointing.

Anyway, funny, cause that stupid claymation actually made me think what it was like to be God in some ways, which I always thought a blasphemous thing. But if you think about it, how would you react if it was you? Lucky we are I say, God loves us, and we should try to strive to make him proud, as we would be nothing without him. The fact that the Devil was involved in this particular film is irrelevant, as it made me think of God, and the power of creating life, and death, and what that must be like. Want to make that plain, as I do not want anyone to flame me thinking I got some thing about the devil (you never know what reaction you will get on this forum, so just playin it safe)

Anywho, that is my 2 cent token thrown into the pot

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[250]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Now, yes Eve was the first to partake. If Adam would not have followed suit...then we would not be here right now, trying to figure all this out. If he would have rejected Eve's offer to partake of knowledge, she would have been cast out alone, and Adam would have been a lone man in the Garden of Eden. That would have separtated the two. God intended for them to be together. I am quoting what i have read in many books and studies. If anyone wans me to find the exact literature in order that I may clarify my own weak attempt at explaining what I have been taught, I will.

God wouldn't let this happen if Adam would not choose to partake. therefore, it was all decided?
why? what does God want out of us? why does our existence matter to such a superior being? oh, don't tell me because God loves us, how could he love something if he never created them? I mean, this superiorbeing is spending effort on something he needn't cared in any way, right?

[250]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: Originally posted by 250: whatever man, how do you know which side I am on if you are not even trying? are you seriously expecting me to accept everything you say without questioning and possibly rejecting? then this kinda knowledge I gain is not only useless but also pointless. keep it to yourself In your anger, you did not fully explain your thoughts here. You mentioned that you do not believe in christianity, then later mention that I should not prejudge which side you are on...that is contradictory. Also, I did not ask for anyone to believe me, either. I, of myself can teach nothing. I can share information that I have learned, and the Spirit of Truth, mentioned in John can confirm the truth, using the fruits of the Spirit, mentioned in Galations. The problem between your thread and mine is that I have spoken to people that have asked me the same questions that you did, when I served a mission to Mexico. They asked those questions to try and "trip me up", or make me stumble in my words...thus convincing themselves that they were right. If I knew that your intentions were to really learn, and not to try to win some sort of game against me, I would actually attempt to share the Plan of Salvation with you. But you have to open your heart to the Spirit to gain anything from what I would say(or anyone else, for that matter), and not be so defensive. In short, God loves us because He is our dad, and dads care

I said "I am not christian"
I am not an adult, does that mean I will never be one? do share it with me, and don't expect me to absorb all at once. so far what you and Yorick and others said had made lots of sense, except my questions still puzzles me.
why oes he care? I mean, God could use abortion so that saves him and us a lot trouble...

[Larry_OHF]

Wow! Ladyzekke!
You may not realize how close you are to what my religion teaches.
We believe in a premortal life.
We have always existed as intelligences, and God created our Spirits, which gives Him the title of Father.
He wanted us to become like Him, and live with Him, but as mere Spirits, we could not progress. He had a plan laid out for our progression. We would come to earth, take on mortal bodies, learn to love Him and grow more spiritually and develop our faith. We were in His presence at the time, so faith was nonexistant. If we were not able to see Him with our own eyes, and in fact remember anything about our existance with Him, we could grow our faith. Therefore, He made this plan for us to come to earth. He wanted to provide a Savior for us as well, because He knew that in all our efforts, we would fall short. Our savior stepped up and said, "send me, and the glory be to thee, our God." Lucifer wanted to have the glory for himself. He said that he would make us do it his way, and we would all follow his lead. God chose Jesus to be our Savior. Lucifer was angry, and rebelled against God. A war commenced, which caused the casting out of Lucifer (and 1/3 of the host of heaven )(reference in Old Testament,Isaiah 14:12 and Luke 10:18)...Anyway, the Adam and Eve thing began,,,and in Adam we all die, yet in the Blood of Christ are we made alive.
We are here on Earth as a school of sorts. Those that get very far will return to live in the presence of the Father. Those that do not put forth much effort will not get as high on the totem pole.

I hope the BRIEF synopsis of my faith is not confusing, and helps to expain "my" perspective of things.

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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.