What have the Romans ever done for us?

[wellard]

Ok Monty python jokes aside What has the European union ever done for us?

Great summary on this BBC site
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6455879.stm

Yes but aside from all that .....

One only has to look at how the former yugoslavia tore itself apart after the magic year of 1989 and remember that most EU countries have spent the last few thousand years doing the same, can anybody see any EU country going to war again? For all the minor bullshit the EU comes up with now and again I think its time that the EU is given the credit it deserves.

EU Good or bad? what do you think?

[PurpleXVI]

EU: Good concept, mediocre execution.

The idea is nice and all, but it either needs to decide on being a US-like state and all of the members need to put aside their own needs in favour of the whole, or it needs to decide that it's going to just be a loose union and drop ideas like a constitution.

Personally I'm in favour of it becoming a state, since more standardized legislation benefits everyone. But if that's ever going to happen, we'll have to throw out the UK and beat down France and Germany with a big stick.

[johnny]

The EU will never work, and eventually die a slow and painfull death, and we all we go our seperate ways again, which i loudly applaud btw. The mere thought of the possiblity of having to adress a Frenchman as "fellow countryman" makes me want to give up drinking.

[PurpleXVI]

Indeed, it probably will never work because we're full of too many damnable nationalists.

If everyone in the EU gave up worshipping their individual flags, and rather cared about all of the people in the union, we could make a solid state that would be just and respectful.

But sadly, that is likely not to be.

I think that the likely outcomes of the EU are, in no specific order:

#1: Over time, most people accept the EU as having more important than their individual countries, things like an EU constitution goes through, legislation becomes more general, idiots like the UK leave us alone, maybe we get rid of France as well, we get a USE.

#2: The EU collapses completely next time there's some huge scandal, as countries start bailing out.

#3: The EU gives up it's idea of making us into the USE and just focuses on trade and regulations, becoming more efficient at that.

Even if the EU dies, though, there will be new unions, either more specifically regional(Scandinavian, Iberian, East European, etc.) or generally European again. Some people will always maintain the grand vision of unifying us all so we can apply or skills and abilities more intelligently and globally, rather than squabbling like fools.

[johnny]

The whole unifying idea isn't that bad really, but we're trying to become one united organ, and at the same time there's numerous regions throughout Europe that wish to become seperate independant states. Take Belgium for instance, a tiny nation divided by languages. There's more and more talk of breaking Belgium up into Flanders end Wallonia, the Basks and Catalans in Spain would like nothing better than to break with Madrid. Even in my country there's a region that has it's own national anthem, and proposed it's own currency at one time in the past, they too wouldn't mind breaking with the motherland, for whatever reasons they may have.

So here we are, discussing the possiblity of a united Europe, while at the same time we don't even succeed in keeping the provinces within our own national borders unified. I wish Brussels good luck with their mission impossible.

[Dreamer128]

Hm.. I don't think any government is aiming for a European 'Superstate'. Instead, they see the EU as a platform to pursue national interests more effectively. Besides, the Nation-State was the cause of much misery in our collective past. I doubt a European 'Superstate' would solve anything. Personally, I think the true strength of the European Union is the fact that it transforms the way countries deal with each other. For instance, in how many continents do you have a situation where former enemies urge each other to spend more on Defense. On a personal note, I believe the EU has made live easier and considerably cheaper for us. It's my personal experience that Euroscepsis is often the result of a lack of familiarity with the European Institutions and a staunch belief in the stereotypes that surround them.

[the new JR Jansen]

Originally posted by johnny: Take Belgium for instance, a tiny nation divided by languages. There's more and more talk of breaking Belgium up into Flanders end Wallonia,

That's how the international media probably brings it too. It's much more juicy that way. Trump it up. It's just political strong arm tactics. A recent survey said that 95% (about 93% in Flanders and 98% in Wallonia) of the people don't wont it to happen. The politicians use this to manuver themselves in a good position (elections coming up) for the negotiations afterwards.

[Dreamer128]

I just came across this article on the start of the 'European Project'. It seems to fit the occasion.

EUOBSERVER / INTERVIEW - It was during a trip to a destroyed Germany in 1947 when Max Kohnstamm, a Dutchman working as a private secretary for queen Wilhelmina, became deeply convinced that Europe should take "common responsibility" for its post-war future.

"That journey made a great impression on me," says Mr Kohnstamm who just a few years later became one of the pioneers of European integration and a close collaborator of EU 'founding father' Jean Monnet.

"I was especially overwhelmed by the unimaginable destruction of Germany," the now 92 year-old tells EUobserver in his home in the Belgian Ardennes.

"When you saw children crawling out of the from the ruins it appeared hard to defend that these children were guilty of Auschwitz," he states.

During the German occupation of the Netherlands, Mr Kohnstamm himself had spent periods in the concentration camp of Amersfoort and the prisoner camp of Sint-Michielsgestel.

But seeing Germany's despair, it became evident to him that "the reconstruction of the Dutch economy would lead to nothing if at the other side of the border, the desert would start."

On the other hand, Dutch memories of Nazi aggression were still very fresh. "What sense does it make to have the Ruhr area in full swing if used to produce bombs which can be thrown at Rotterdam?"

When Mr Kohnstamm worked as a foreign ministry official in 1948-1949, political circles in The Hague were already searching for solutions for the difficult German question, mooting plans to integrate Germany in some sort of pan-European economic structure.

'This step had to succeed'
But it was France's foreign minister Robert Schuman who in May 1950 presented - in Mr Kohnstamm's words - a "revolutionary" plan to put Franco-German production of coal and steel under a common High Authority, in a scheme open to other countries that might be interested.

Immediately inspired by the Schuman plan, Mr Kohnstamm became a member of the Dutch delegation in negotiations between six nations on what was to become a European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC).

The ECSC talks were chaired by another Frenchman who had been the real brain behind the Schuman plan - Jean Monnet, at that time the head of the French General Planning Commission.

"At the opening of the negotiations, Monnet very clearly stressed the revolutionary nature of this process," Mr Kohnstamm recalls on the first round of the talks, which he describes as "to a large extent informal" with a small number of people.

"On the nature of the revolution, we did not philosophise a lot. There was no time for that. We made this step and it had to succeed. If it failed, there would not be much more left to think about."

Meanwhile, West Germany was an equal partner in the talks - something which was not that self-evident, even if the upcoming Soviet threat made re-engagement of the Germans a matter of urgency.

One close Monnet aide, Etienne Hirsch, had lost his parents in Auschwitz. "But he negotiated with the German delegation on the basis of equality. That was proof of a greatness of vision."

Meanwhile for the Netherlands - strongly oriented towards the UK and the US - it was hard to swallow that the British had chosen to stay out of the talks.

"The Germans were hated by a large part of the population, the Italians we had never really taken seriously, we did not trust the French and we didn't really trust the Belgians either," Mr Kohnstamm describes the early post-war atmosphere in the Netherlands.

Monnet's view on the world
But the revolutionary negotiations succeeded, and Mr Kohnstamm was rewarded in 1952 with a job as the first Secretary of the High Authority - the executive body - of the European Coal and Steel Community.

Mr Kohnstamm worked directly under Jean Monnet who served as the ECSC's first president, leading to a close working and personal relationship between the two.

The Dutchman also followed Monnet when he switched from the ECSC to the so-called Action Committee for the United States of Europe, a pressure group lobbying for further European integration from 1956 onwards.

During those years, he gradually developed an understanding of Monnet's deeper motivations, which the Frenchman did not often share with others.

Monnet had no end-goal in sight for the European project, but rather saw it as a "process without an end," Mr Kohnstamm says.

"For Monnet, terms like federation or confederation – those were words. But the process was clear – a process through which people started to realise that they had a common responsibility."

"One of the rare times when our conversations did go in-depth, Monnet said: look, freedom of goods, services, people, capital is very important and necessary, but what this is really about is to get people to understand that it's not about my interest against your interest, but that in this world, only common solutions are possible."

Message for the future
This was, according to Mr Kohnstamm, Monnet's "view on the world" - a view which the Dutchman wants to pass on to younger generations. His message on the occasion of the EU's 50th birthday is directed to world leaders rather than to Europe alone.

Mr Kohnstamm says he is "not very worried" about the EU's current constitutional crisis and believes the integration process is "continuing."

"The essential element of it is the common decision-making and the European Court in Luxembourg. The greatest triumph has been that in these 50 years, not a single government has said – well, the heck with it."

"But on the level of world politics, we are busy returning to the balance of power as the regulating principle," he says expressing deep concern about the power politics of the US in particular, citing various examples such as Washington's recent coalition-building efforts with Japan and Australia against China.

"We know from our own history what that leads to...If you want to put it in a very dark way: the European Community was created not before, but only after 40 million people were killed."

(Source: http://euobserver.com/9/23759 )

[ 03-25-2007, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

[wellard]

That was an intresting article Dreamer [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

But mention must be given to the failure of the peace following the 'WW1'. Without question it was blamed for the rise of WW2 and the facist/nationalist movements of that era.

[Dreamer128]

Originally posted by wellard: That was an intresting article Dreamer [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] But mention must be given to the failure of the peace following the 'WW1'. Without question it was blamed for the rise of WW2 and the facist/nationalist movements of that era.

Thanks Wellard. [img]smile.gif[/img] And yes, after WWI, everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong. The victors bled the losers dry (Versailles), which cleared the way for a new wave of nationalism in countries such as Germany. Worse, the League of Nations (which lacked support from the Great Powers) did not provide an effective framework for guarding the peace. I'm just glad these mistakes weren't repeated after WWII. The UN is much more efficient than the League and the predecessors of the EU allowed winners and losers alike to get back on their feet. Of course, having the Soviet Union as a neighbour also played its part in bringing together former foes in the West.