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Old 02-25-2003, 03:36 AM   #151
LordKathen
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
 

Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Kennewick, WA
Age: 51
Posts: 3,166
I dont think you are looking at the picture big enough. We most certainly have become to smart. Cars take up room yes, but why did we make cars in the first place?
Yes it is about resource management, but if we continue on the road we are on, all the resources we could manage would eventually run out also.
Our intelagence has created a world where we use many times the amount of resources we can handle at the rate we are populating.
We will wipe our selfs out. There is no way around it.

Lets take a look at the picture really tiny. Viruses are out evolving our science and vaccines. They addapt to our envirement quicker than we can find a new weapon. Our immune systems are becoming weaker against sickness, becouse we are becoming to reliant on antibacterial products and such.

That is only one problem of many we will face.

There is so much more to this debate of evolution and science than I think any of us know. We are focusing to small on irrelevent issues. Evolution is in and around everything, from the ant you stepped on, to leaves that drop in fall, to an orchid that has a 16 inch tubular flower. You ask, "how does it get its pollun to another orchid?" A moth with a 16 inch nose. A fine example of co-evolution, by the way.
There is book that my father has that I am going to read as soon as he is done. He is a Mental Health Pro, with a masters degree in science, and is agnostic. He recomends this book. I cant wait.
It is by Carl Zimmer, is called "Evolution: The triumph of an idea"
Amozon has it for sale.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...544058-4927942

[ 02-25-2003, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]
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Old 02-25-2003, 03:37 AM   #152
LennonCook
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: November 10, 2001
Location: Bathurst & Orange, in constant flux
Age: 37
Posts: 5,452
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
0

Only within a species - dogs getting bigger/smaller etc. I don't accept the evolution of new species through mutations. In 4000 years of history no human has seen a reproducable mutation. It would take to much faith for me to accept biologists speculations on that issue.

Secondly I find it illogical. How does a creature without wings, who survives without wings, suddenly grow them simply because a need for them arises?

Such is the thinking behind apes going into water for example. A species that drowns because of it's nasal shape, suddenly grows the downturned nose of humanity that blocks water, because it needs to swim?

Evolution makes no sense to me.
The idea behind mutations and evolution is this:
When any reproduction takes place, characteristics are passed on from the parents to the next generation. Unfavourable characteristics will die out, and not be passed on to the next generation.
The favourable characteristics *will* be passed on.

In sexual reproduction (more than one parent), some characteristics will mingle, and thus cause mutations.
To use your example of the nasal shape -
Some apes will have a more human nose than others. If they were to go into water, those with a more human nose would have an easier time surviving. Those who had the nose that blocks no water at all, would drown.
In this way, only the favourable characteristic of the downturned nose would survive to be passed on to the next generation.
The offspring may have a slightly more or slightly less downturned nose than their parents - again, those with the more downturned nose would survive in greater numbers than those with a less downturned nose.
If this pattern continues over several generations, eventually you will have a species which has no trouble at all swimming.
But often it cannot go back the other way - take fish for example. No fish now will survive in air for very long. BUT, we can notice that knowledge could also be passed on in this way... most fish will not *try* to leave the water - why ?? Because they have no interest in doing so. Those who were interested in it, died out. This could also mean that the fish *know* they will not survive if they leave the water.
This also explains species extinction over time, until humans develope complex weapons. Take the dodo - it couldn`t fly. It was hunted down, and so it died out. Flight would have been a favourable characteristic, but there was no mutation of the species which provided it.
A species will not suddenly develope a characteristic it does need, instead it will loose a characteristic which weakens it, and further develope a characteristic that was already present.
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Old 02-25-2003, 03:42 AM   #153
Moiraine
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Up in the Freedomland Alps
Age: 59
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Wow ! So many ideas ! This thread must be the most successful one I ever posted on Ironworks !

Quote:
Originally posted by Leonis:
All I have to say on topic ( ), is that if evolution was true and worked the way it was claimed, we would see only smart, fit, lean, dark skinned (protection from sun/attract heat in the cold), whole, undiseased humans roaming the earth.

Instead we get a world populated by a few billion people who are dumber than an ape...
Lion man, two things you lay aside : first, we are not the finality of the human line, merely a step on the huge ladder, and second, viruses evolve too [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT : One could retort to you that if God was true and worked the way it was claimed, we would see only wise humans living in peace and harmony.

If you admit that it takes a lot of time for the message of God to fully sink in our thick human brains, why can't you accept the long time it takes for a significant change in a specie to occur ?

[ 02-25-2003, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]
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Old 02-25-2003, 03:44 AM   #154
LordKathen
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Join Date: September 15, 2002
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Hey moiraine, you should start Evolution 2. This one is getting big.

[ 02-25-2003, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]
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Old 02-25-2003, 03:55 AM   #155
Moiraine
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Posts: 2,474
Quote:
Originally posted by LordKathen:
Hey moiraine, you should start Evolution 2. This one is getting big.
Jolly good idea, Lord Kathen, I'll start it right now. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 02-25-2003, 03:59 AM   #156
esquire
The Magister
 

Join Date: February 19, 2002
Location: Canada
Age: 45
Posts: 121
Quote:
Originally posted by LordKathen:
I dont think you are looking at the picture big enough. We most certainly have become to smart. Cars take up room yes, but why did we make cars in the first place?
Yes it is about resource management, but if we continue on the road we are on, all the resources we could manage would eventually run out also.
Our intelagence has created a world where we use many times the amount of resources we can handle at the rate we are populating.
We will wipe our selfs out. There is no way around it.

Lets take a look at the picture really tiny. Viruses are out evolving our science and vaccines. They addapt to our envirement quicker than we can find a new weapon. Our immune systems are becoming weaker against sickness, becouse we are becoming to reliant on antibacterial products and such.

That is only one problem of many we will face.

Hey man! don't be such a pessimist!

- We have mapped the human genome. - countless new drugs/treatments/vaccines are being researched/created.

-as much as I detest genetically altered food, it is probably the only thing that will maintain the food levels we need to survive.

- then there is space, the final frontier limitless planets and resources there for the taking, all we have to do is start building more spaceships.

I think our mutual survival hinges on a race against the odds. If we can create new antibiotics to combat new infections, we can survive. If we can genetically alter ourselves to combat cancer, we can survive. If we can invent new technologies to be more efficient and environmentally friendly, then we will reduce the damage to the earth. ect...
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Old 02-25-2003, 04:19 AM   #157
LordKathen
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Everybody head over to Evolution 2
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