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Old 09-17-2013, 09:04 AM   #1
Wolf Rider2
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Join Date: April 15, 2009
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Default In terms of internet..

Okay, so I'm not sure how many people are aware of the current debate in Australia about the National Broadband Network, or how many people are particularly interested, but I just wanted to get some opinions from people who most likely know a LOT more about the technical side of it than I do.

The Liberal party's NBN plan is Fibre to the Node, which will keep the existing copper wires that give us our ridiculously slow internet speed. From what I understand, thanks to a little bit of research and Sparhawk, in the TES post, if you're close to one of the hubs your speed should be faster. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened in Australia is that the wires are deteriorating underground, and I know that Telstra (the main internet and phone provider, basically has a monopoly, and they own all the hubs and wires) is thinking about replacing the wires because they cost too much to upkeep. If it goes ahead, it will most likely be paid for by taxpayers. In that case, would it not make sense to simply put Fibre to the Home, as was Labor's plan, rather than continuing to use and replace copper wires and implementing FTTN when it won't actually make it faster due to the distance of people from the hub not changing?

Currently there is a petition people are signing to get FTTH, which has over a quarter of a million signatures. The government is not currently listening. I'm not putting this forward from the perspective of a gamer. I think that faster internet speeds are important for a wide variety of reasons, not just gaming, such as research and communication.
Here's a link to the Liberal policy.
http://www.liberal.org.au/fast-affor...lan-better-nbn

Am I and over 250,000 other Australians getting this completely wrong? Just wanted some confirmation either way. Sorry for the long post.
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Old 09-17-2013, 02:13 PM   #2
Sparhawk
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Default Re: In terms of internet..

Yes and no....

Copper cable:
Supports maximum 1Gbit/sec in speeds due to the need for repeaters ( also known as mini hubs ) as the signal is not transferred long and strongly enough compared to other choices. Only the newest copper cables supporting Ethernet 5.0 are able to carry this speed.

Optical fibre:
Will typically support 10-20 Gbit/sec and needs fewer hubs due to the signal not being electrical but made of light. Some cables have been proven to support up to 400 Gbit/sec but a speed of 100 Gbit are more common.

It makes absolutely no sense to keep copper as the main wire unless its to save money from having to rebury new wire. It is possible to use copper to the mini hubs and then optical fibre from there - but you will stunt the network some and will probably not get speeds over 10mbit for the individual users.

In Sweden they use a fibre optic network that supports up 10gbit for individual users - its not a coincidence that Piratebay was born in Sweden ya know....
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:13 PM   #3
Wolf Rider2
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Default Re: In terms of internet..

I'm pretty sure the copper cables we have here haven't been replaced since they were first put in, they've just been trying to upkeep them instead because replacing them cost too much... Obviously it's cheaper to replace them in the long run, but Telstra doesn't think that way.

I guess we're going to be stuck with slow internet then, especially as the new PM has said that he doesn't want to spend $50 billion on what he thinks is just an entertainment system...
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:47 AM   #4
Sparhawk
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Default Re: In terms of internet..

I'd say it would probably be more beneficial for a large area country as Australia to insert a viable LTE system instead - its about a hundreth of the cost, its wireless and it supports even higher speeds than fibre.

oh and your PM is a prick - has he no concept of how important internet lines is for electronic/software companies? Has he no interest in expanding industry? if all he is worried about is "entertainment network" vote the ■■■■■■ out - he doesn't deserve his seat!

In Denmark we have a government that is clinging to power at the moment, they decided that once they had power they didn't have to any of the things they promised at the elections and the polls are now the lowest EVER for that part of the political system. We all know that the conservatives will be worse - but we will all vote for them simply to tell the socialists that we don't take crap!
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"Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. There was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world. Hither came Conan, the cimmarian, sword in hand. It is I, his chronicler who knows well his saga. Now let me tell you of the days of high adventure!"

"Unleash the Casey!"

"Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:43 PM   #5
Wolf Rider2
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Default Re: In terms of internet..

He only just got voted in last week, he's getting sworn in today... I will point out that I did not vote for him, I personally think he's a chauvinistic, arrogant, self-centred, power-hungry piece of crap, but a majority of Australia disagrees with me. However a large proportion of Australia's demographic is older people who don't actually know how to use a computer, therefore they don't care about the internet at all. They're very much looking forward to him taking us back to the 1950s, which is what is happening at the moment...

What is this LTE system you speak of?
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:48 AM   #6
Sparhawk
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Default Re: In terms of internet..

LTE also known as Long Term Evolution 4G is the mobile broadband network.

And I need to correct a mistake on my parts - LTE is not faster than fibre...I messed up Mbit and Gbit on that one - my bad!

In other words
Fiber: 10.000-20.000 Mbit/s
Copper: 1000 Mbit/s
LTE: 300 Mbit/s

However...I've NEVER seen a network based on copper that supports more than 30 Mbit/s so the degrade of signal strength must be really bad - which is why many repeaters are needed.
Fiber just do it with light and as we know light does not degrade over our measly small distances so the signal will not degrade at all.

A note on the speeds:
300 Mbit/s is enough to pull down a full DVD movie in about 10 seconds - we will NEVER have a use for a network supporting 10-20Gbit/s unless we start beaming people to the moon and back with datastreams.


The reason that LTE is cheaper to implement is that it is basically just an attached antenne to the existing mobile masts around the countryside and some upgrades to the software ( okay fairly heavy upgrades ) but compare that with having to dig up the cables for a few thousand miles ( this being Austrailia its prbly closer to a few mio miles ) and you should be able to see how come it's so much cheaper.

There is one little thing that i do remember from out implementation here in Denmark, the antennas for LTE are shaped differently ( small orbs instead of rectangular antennas as the the ordinary 3G network uses ) this also means that the supported area is affected as the antenna will cover a different sized area ( something it took us about a month to realize - embarrasing really ).

The bad thing about wireless is that the amount of users per hub is paramount to the speed - i.e. in Copenhagen we have about 800.000 inhabitants and speeds will be nerfed by the sheer amount of people using it. However in the countryside my dad for instance will happily rock on with 80 Mbit/s. ( I live in the surburbs so I get about 40 Mbit )


In geekspeak.

Quote:
The LTE standard only supports packet switching with its all-IP network. Voice calls in GSM, UMTS and CDMA2000 are circuit switched, so with the adoption of LTE, carriers will have to re-engineer their voice call network.[27] Three different approaches sprang up:

VoLTE (Voice Over LTE): This approach is based on the IP Multimedia Subsystem (IMS) network, with specific profiles for control and media planes of voice service on LTE defined by GSMA in PRD IR.92. This approach results in the voice service (control and media planes) being delivered as data flows within the LTE data bearer. This means that there is no dependency on (or ultimately, requirement for) the legacy Circuit Switch voice network to be maintained.

CSFB (Circuit Switched Fallback): In this approach, LTE just provides data services, and when a voice call is to be initiated or received, it will fall back to the circuit switched domain. When using this solution, operators just need to upgrade the MSC instead of deploying the IMS, and therefore, can provide services quickly. However, the disadvantage is longer call setup delay.

SVLTE (Simultaneous Voice and LTE): In this approach, the handset works simultaneously in the LTE and circuit switched modes, with the LTE mode providing data services and the circuit switched mode providing the voice service. This is a solution solely based on the handset, which does not have special requirements on the network and does not require the deployment of IMS either. The disadvantage of this solution is that the phone can become expensive with high power consumption
__________________
"Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. There was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world. Hither came Conan, the cimmarian, sword in hand. It is I, his chronicler who knows well his saga. Now let me tell you of the days of high adventure!"

"Unleash the Casey!"

"Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:26 AM   #7
Wolf Rider2
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Default Re: In terms of internet..

Thanks for the explanation, that really helped. Even though it's not as fast as fibre, that would still be a LOT better than what we have currently, but LTE hasn't even been mentioned by the government. I doubt they know what it is.

Seeing as money appears to be one of their main issues, this is sounding like a much better option. If only they would listen.
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