Terrorist attack hotels in Mumbai - 183 dead hundreds injured

[Harkoliar]

Originally Posted by Yorick Wellard, what would you like those of us with faith to do? Just take your word and say "ah yes, my religious faith that gives me hope, and purpose and actually keeps me alive each day has somehow caused people in Mumbai to die. Therefore I shall go against what I believe is right and true and stop trying to be peacefull, selfless, kind and patient and just give into to my baser desires and addictions, and pretty much self-destruct." Is that what I should do? And will that make the situation any better? Because if it's not a solution why are you posting this????????

i believe they just used religion as an excuse. its more of inequality of everything that prompted them to do this. naturally terrorism would attract these followers and supply them with the means with terror.

also i believe they are just blaming everyone and anyone except themselves. such childish but dangerous people.

[wellard]

Because Yorick the root cause IS religion, maybe not your idea of true religion, undoubtedly a corrupt and distorted view of a great faith, but regardless it was the terrorists religious beliefs that was the root cause.

The terrorist's where fighting for the religious ideals against people whom they see as enemies of there religious beliefs. You look at religion and see the beauty and all things good that come from it, i switch on the news and see the ugliness and the evil done in its name. Two sides of the same coin maybe but the coin is still religion.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

C'mon people, look at what going on here.

Are we using these terrorist attacks to attack each other, or one another's beliefs?

Can anyone really know the mind of a terrorist, but a terrorist?

Of course I can't speak for the religion these people follow. It way say that's it's "ok" to kill people in certain circumstances, or they may have subverted whatever doctrine they follow (if any) to promote their cause of terrorism.They may not have a religion at all.

The New Testament promotes peace and love. So, if anyone promotes violence and hatred in the name of Christianty, of any sort, an "educated" Christian will know it's false.

Let me leave you with this headline to ponder:

Americans kill Walmart employee to get a bargain!
(can't find the article, but I'm you've heard about it by now)

Which is worse?
At least with a terrorist, you know what you're getting.

[johnny]

I wouldn't go as far as saying religeon is the cause of all problems, but regarding Islam...the MAIN problem is that their holy book can be interpreted in so many different ways, it's not even funny anymore. The salafists and wahabists have their own retarded interpretation of it, with the existance of Al Qaeda as a result. From my own experiences i know that a lot of the muslims condemn their actions just as much as we do, but a silent majority also rejoice in the results of terror such as the attack on the WTC, something i whitnessed with my own eyes when celebrating people came out of their mosques on that dreadful day. Also, the growing anti Semitism in Europe has but one cause, and it starts with the hatespeeches in mosques all across Europe by imams with highly questionable reputations. Why we still allow that tumor to grow within our scociety is beyond me, but i'm sure that one day we will open our eyes and set the record straight.

[Stratos]

Religion is a major component in many people's worldview and framework with which they interpret reality. Religion by its own rarely makes people do things like this, there's usually some political, economic or social factors involved, but it also cannot just be rejected as irrelevant.

In the end, it's someones take on religious doctrines that affects their behaviour; religion is not an object capable of harming anyone.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by wellard Because Yorick the root cause IS religion, maybe not your idea of true religion, undoubtedly a corrupt and distorted view of a great faith, but regardless it was the terrorists religious beliefs that was the root cause. The terrorist's where fighting for the religious ideals against people whom they see as enemies of there religious beliefs. You look at religion and see the beauty and all things good that come from it, i switch on the news and see the ugliness and the evil done in its name. Two sides of the same coin maybe but the coin is still religion.

Wellard you haven't answered how such a statement helps the situation. You're not offering a solution.

Again, I repeat, lumping all religions together like that is akin to saying "human beliefs are at fault". Which means a person that believes that the world exists (which is actually a religious belief, not everyone believes the world exists, and some religions say it doesn't) is part of the problem in your book. Do you believe the world exists? Whether you do or not, means YOU are part of the problem according to your logic.

I would suggest that you have "religious beliefs". Everyone does. We call them "worldviews". In rejecting what you're calling "religion" you're having faith that your worldview, your doubts and your beliefs, are truer than those who believe radical Islam is the right way.

Additionally by lumping essentially the whole planet to blame you're not blaming anything, so amorphously huge a thing you have blamed. So I repeat: it doesn't help and only serves to offend those who have nothing to do with the situation.

MY religion is just that. PERSONAL. To try and lump me, personally, in with a radical muslim using violence is as offensive as it is nonsensical and illogical.

I suggest that you look carefully at the differences between the minority of Wahabist Muslims who practice terrorism and Sufi Muslims who do not. I suggest you compare them with essentially atheistic pacifist Buddhists who believe the world doesn't exist, and compare them with the Jewish prophets who said the world did exist, and does matter.

I suggest you compare Mother Theresa or members of the Salvation Army who spend their time tirelessly helping people eat, sleep, find peace and healing, with the people who would kill maim and destroy, before offensively lumping them into the same boat in such an offhanded manner.

And before anyone jumps in and says "see! religious discussion causes contention on ironworks", no, accusations and thoughtless generalisations of blame cause contention on Ironworks.

We could, on Ironworks, all unite and feel sympathy for the victims, rage against the perpetrators, and hope that we can change the world for a better place. Instead, one accusatory comment marginalises those of us that have some sort of faith in God, from those who do not, and divides. It's not religion that's the problem here or in Mumbai, it's intolerance and ignorance.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally Posted by Yorick (snip) It's not religion that's the problem here or in Mumbai, it's intolerance and ignorance.

But if the religion calls for one to train well, execute orders without hesitation, and then allows them to go to paradise for their actions, is it not a religious motive?

Extracts from anti-terrorist doctrine.

"Any efforts to deprogram members of al-Queda
will have to start with terrorists already in custody.
There are about 100 would-be suicide-bombers in jail in Israel.
These individuals were not necessarily trained by al-Queda camps in Afghanistan.
But they share similar ways of thinking.
They believe that they should kill themselves
in the process of killing as many Jews as possible.
And they believe that they will go immediately to Paradise
for doing such a 'holy' act of murder-suicide."

"If Jews in Israel attempted to deprogram Arabs,
they would be seen as the enemy, not as friends.
But when the deprogramming takes place within a Muslim country,
conducted by well-known Muslim leaders,
then the chance of success are much higher."

"...much better effect would be achieved
if one of the people who used to be a true-believer
can be convinced that the religious ideology of the cult was deeply mistaken.
Then this convert will want to save others from making the same mistake.
He or she will be a great help in finding and de-fusing other cult cells.
Working with inside information will always be better
than trying to attack religious cults from outside."

IMHO, it really is religion that keeps this vicious cycle energized.

[Stratos]

Well, as long as they think they're oppressed in one form or another iy will be difficult to deprogram them. Some form of acceptable alternative has to be presented.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Felix The Assassin But if the religion calls for one to train well, execute orders without hesitation, and then allows them to go to paradise for their actions, is it not a religious motive?[/color]

If so, then that's an issue with a specific religion, or more precisely one aspect of a specific denomination within a specific religion, not the concept of "religion" per se.

The best solution to the spread of extremist Wahabist Islam is actually religion itself. Either theologically persuading people from violent intepretations to spiritual ones, to become Sufi Muslims, or another religion altogether - like of course Christianity - dedicated to the same creator God.

Christians and Muslims and Jews have more in common than they have differences. And while I may disagree with my Muslim brothers on matters relating to who Jesus is, whether he was killed or not, the validity of the Qu'ran vs the Gospels, etc etc etc, I will defend their right to pray towards Mecca, fast during Ramadan, give to the poor and live lives trying to submit to Allah if they believe that their way is right and true.

The issue in Mumbai appears to be rooted in problems in Kashmir: territory, revenge against perceived injustice etc etc. Problems that would not exist had England not partitioned India: for it is proven that people of different religious persuasion can, have and do live together in harmony, as they have for centuries. If we're going to look at religious wars, why do not look at the more prevalent "religious peace" or do people here only notice when things break down, not when things are working?

Originally Posted by Felix The Assassin [color=#8bb381] IMHO, it really is religion that keeps this vicious cycle energized.

Even though Jesus preaches against revenge by turning the other cheek, (the solution to stepping out of a cycle of violence) and tat he forbade his followers to even defend his own life, and even though he willingly went to his death, you would equate his actions with the cycle of violence perpetuated by people who reject the beliefs I just stated.

The logical stretch here is unthinkable.

So, pacifism is to blame for war?
A belief in the sanctity of human life is to blame for murder?
A belief in forgiveness and love is to blame for hatred?

Are we in 1984 where doublespeak reigns and 2+2=5 now? This is crazy talk to lump all religions into the same basket.

As said, we may as well say "ideas are to blame" so varied are the worlds religions.

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally Posted by Yorick If so, then that's an issue with a specific religion, or more precisely one aspect of a specific denomination within a specific religion, not the concept of "religion" per se. The best solution to the spread of extremist Wahabist Islam is actually religion itself. Either theologically persuading people from violent intepretations to spiritual ones, to become Sufi Muslims, or another religion altogether - like of course Christianity - dedicated to the same creator God. Christians and Muslims and Jews have more in common than they have differences. And while I may disagree with my Muslim brothers on matters relating to who Jesus is, whether he was killed or not, the validity of the Qu'ran vs the Gospels, etc etc etc, I will defend their right to pray towards Mecca, fast during Ramadan, give to the poor and live lives trying to submit to Allah if they believe that their way is right and true. The issue in Mumbai appears to be rooted in problems in Kashmir: territory, revenge against perceived injustice etc etc. Problems that would not exist had England not partitioned India: for it is proven that people of different religious persuasion can, have and do live together in harmony, as they have for centuries. If we're going to look at religious wars, why do not look at the more prevalent "religious peace" or do people here only notice when things break down, not when things are working? Even though Jesus preaches against revenge by turning the other cheek, (the solution to stepping out of a cycle of violence) and tat he forbade his followers to even defend his own life, and even though he willingly went to his death, you would equate his actions with the cycle of violence perpetuated by people who reject the beliefs I just stated. The logical stretch here is unthinkable. So, pacifism is to blame for war? A belief in the sanctity of human life is to blame for murder? A belief in forgiveness and love is to blame for hatred? Are we in 1984 where doublespeak reigns and 2+2=5 now? This is crazy talk to lump all religions into the same basket. As said, we may as well say "ideas are to blame" so varied are the worlds religions.

You are laying some pretty heavy stuff out there Yorick. I think we agree upon your first statement, a single portion of a certain fanatical indoctrination. The rest is way over my religious comprehension. But I do have a quote that I refer to on occasion, and I'm thinking this is such an occasion.

The intellectual founder of Islamism, Sayyid Qutb, wrote in 1957: "In the world there is only one party, the party of Allah; all of the others are parties of Satan and rebellion. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of the rebellion."