The russian children

[The Hierophant]

Since we're in the habit of post dissection I'll be happy to continue the trend....

Originally posted by Knightscape: The Russian people exist. The Chechnyan people exist. The killing of Russian children by Chechnyan terrorist did occur. To deny this is to deny reality.

I never said they didn't exist I said that they are nothing. I implied the superficiality of their identity. I implied the malleability, the unimportance of their identity.

Just a little over the top. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Awww c'mon, have you never been in a (admittedly cheesy) poetic mood before?

Names are easy to change, faces stay the same. As for controlling their minds, it is much easier said than done.

faces change when genes change. Move people around, inter-breed them. Change their faces.
And as for controlling their minds, you're right, easier said than done. I meant to say 'control the way they express their minds', which is more workable.

As does the never ending desire to just live in peace.

True, among herd mammals; among servants and slaves. But among predators, among human rulers, the will to power is paramount. And my personal belief is that as individuals, predators count for more than their prey. Indeed the prey must be cultivated, else the predator cannot feed (read: the ruler cannot rule, in a human context, if there are no servants to command). Yet herd mammals are only valuable as a group, as individuals they do not matter.

The evidence of this thread would seem to contradict this. It has been a free exchange of ideas. There has been no 'either agree with me or else'. What holds the strands of life together is language, expression, and knowledge. Without these 'a means to an end' would truely become the reality.

free exchange of ideas = differing wills, with differing views, imposing their standpoints through language. Sure, accept or deny another viewpoint as you see fit, but if it wern't for the desire to influence, to mould, and to change other people, language would not exist at all.

<--all my utterly subjective and prejudicial opinion of course.

[ 09-09-2004, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Knightscape]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: I never said they didn't exist I said that they are nothing. I implied the superficiality of their identity. I implied the malleability, the unimportance of their identity.

To be nothing is not to exist. Many were killed at the hands of terrorist. Many people watched and developed there own ideas of the Russian's and Chechyan's
actions. If they were nothing they could not have done this.

True, among herd mammals; among servants and slaves. But among predators, among human rulers, the will to power is paramount.

Perhaps this is true of some, but most people is given the chance would most likely just choose to live in peace.

free exchange of ideas = differing wills, with differing views, imposing their standpoints through language. Sure, accept or deny another viewpoint as you see fit, but if it wern't for the desire to influence, to mould, and to change other people, language would not exist at all.

The desire to grow to change and to learn from other people is the reason for language. Well that and survival.

<--all my utterly subjective and prejudicial opinion of course.

ditto

[Avatar]

Originally posted by Knightscape: quote: Originally posted by Avatar: I think there are extremists in every society. But not every society is in as much turmoil as theirs. Its WRONG to do that but we can't apply our morality and logic to all. Simply pointless

An extremist in one society is a moderate in another. Societies in turmoil tend to be there because the extremist views became exceptable.

What can we use to guide us if not our morality and logic? [/QUOTE]I disagree.

I think we are no more extreme than anyone else deep down. We are all animals, but we have not tasted war and terror like some have. If we do, I fear we are just as animalistic as others.

We can not imagine what it is like. It is wrong to sit here and apply our morals and sensibility.

We can try and prevent things but to pass judgement makes us too aristocratic.

[Harkoliar]

i agree with avatar. remove our technological and put us in a warzone in a world of hate and survival then we would bring our animalistic side of us to survive.

[Knightscape]

Originally posted by Avatar: quote: Originally posted by Knightscape: Originally posted by Avatar: [qb] What can we use to guide us if not our morality and logic? I disagree. I think we are no more extreme than anyone else deep down. We are all animals, but we have not tasted war and terror like some have. If we do, I fear we are just as animalistic as others. We can not imagine what it is like. It is wrong to sit here and apply our morals and sensibility. We can try and prevent things but to pass judgement makes us too aristocratic.

Everytime you give your opinion you are basing it on your morals and sensibility.

You make judgements every time a new situation occurs. Just by saying that " to pass judgement makes us too aristocratic" you have made a judgement.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Knightscape: To be nothing is not to exist.

By your definition, not mine

Many were killed at the hands of terrorist. Many people watched and developed there own ideas of the Russian's and Chechyan's actions. If they were nothing they could not have done this.

To be nothing is to be of no consequence (my definition, not yours). This incident shall barely register a fraction of a blip on the genetic inheritance of our species. The people will all be forgotten, what will remain is the instinct for the timid to huddle together and mourn and bewail their fate, whilst the strong herd them and prey upon them (read: rulers shall exploit their fear and communal desire for safety as a means to secure their labour).

Perhaps this is true of some, but most people is given the chance would most likely just choose to live in peace.

That is because most people are servants, and lack the strength to rule.

The desire to grow to change and to learn from other people is the reason for language. Well that and survival.

Well, by now I have fully recognised you as a herd creature. That's well and good Where you see so-called learning, change and growth I see manipulation and social conditioning.
And what is survival for the herd other than the security of communal consensus? Huddle together, garner protection in numbers, safety from the outside world. Peace is an illusion,a sheep's justification for enforced conformity. Aggression and violence upset timid herd-folk by disrupting the serenity of the group.Yet these same concepts are qualities in an individual who seeks to exert their will over such a herd.

[ 09-09-2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Knightscape]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: That is because most people are servants, and lack the strength to rule.

Most people are neither servant or rulers, just somewhere in-between.

Well, by now I have fully recognised you as a herd creature. That's well and good

No mooing here, but neither any baying. Just being human. If you ever get tired of baying at the moon, you shood try it sometime. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Where you see so-called learning, change and growth I see manipulation and social conditioning.

As long as communication goes both ways there will be learning, change and growth.

Peace is an illusion,a sheep's justification for enforced conformity. Aggression and violence upset timid herd-folk by disrupting the serenity of the group.Yet these same concepts are qualities in an individual who seeks to exert their will over such a herd. And what is survival for the herd other than the security of communal consensus? Huddle together, garner protection in numbers, safety from the outside world.

Sheep seek survival, humans seek more, they seek to live and grow and live in peace.

[Dreamer128]

While discussing the attrocities commited by Chechen terrorists, let's not overlook the crimes of the Russian soldiers in Chechnya. If you've been following the news, you've probably seen it all pass. From the rape and torture of children to seemingly random executions of civilians.

[Knightscape]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: While discussing the attrocities commited by Chechen terrorists, let's not overlook the crimes of the Russian soldiers in Chechnya. If you've been following the news, you've probably seen it all pass. From the rape and torture of children to seemingly random executions of civilians.

While we should not overlook accusation of crimes by Russian soldiers in Chechnya neither should be use them to rationalize the actions by Chechnyan terrorists.

[Dreamer128]

Nor did I try to do so. Point is, we often do overlook the human rights situation in Chechnya. Granted, the Council of Europe has issued a few warnings, but I don't think anything concrete has been done. Putin just points at the terrorists/freedom fighters, waves his magic wand, mutters the words 'international terrorism' and everyone looks the other way.

[ 09-10-2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]