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Old 10-14-2003, 02:38 PM   #41
slicer15
Symbol of Cyric
 

Join Date: November 12, 2002
Location: Banstead, Southeast England
Age: 37
Posts: 1,162
Quote:
Originally posted by SpiritWarrior:
quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
SpiritWarrior, the same can be said of non-religious groupings. Power is power- you don't need to claim spiritual intervention to be aspiring toward it or seizing it.

Harkoliar- it was a nice try! I understood the point! I surely don't talk to God as much as I should or could. Thanks for posting!
This is my point. This is not about religion, this is about human nature. People are killing each other in the name of their gods. What god commands that? [/QUOTE]No god 'commands' that. It is simply an excuse to kill other people, a manipulation of religion to 'allow' the killing, almost like the manipulation churches used (and some still use) about submitting to it. It is a side effect of free will, the ability to make any decision, no matter what it is. It is not God's will but a man-made thing.
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Old 10-14-2003, 03:58 PM   #42
SpiritWarrior
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: May 31, 2002
Location: Ireland
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Quote:
Originally posted by slicer15:
quote:
Originally posted by SpiritWarrior:
quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
SpiritWarrior, the same can be said of non-religious groupings. Power is power- you don't need to claim spiritual intervention to be aspiring toward it or seizing it.

Harkoliar- it was a nice try! I understood the point! I surely don't talk to God as much as I should or could. Thanks for posting!
This is my point. This is not about religion, this is about human nature. People are killing each other in the name of their gods. What god commands that? [/QUOTE]No god 'commands' that. It is simply an excuse to kill other people, a manipulation of religion to 'allow' the killing, almost like the manipulation churches used (and some still use) about submitting to it. It is a side effect of free will, the ability to make any decision, no matter what it is. It is not God's will but a man-made thing. [/QUOTE]Yes the question was rhetorical . You have it there though, no god does command it, man does.
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Old 10-14-2003, 05:04 PM   #43
slicer15
Symbol of Cyric
 

Join Date: November 12, 2002
Location: Banstead, Southeast England
Age: 37
Posts: 1,162
Ah sorry. My mistake. Its just I come across that question so many times (at school mostly) and the people who ask it there mean it. I feel a little stupid now that look at the way you phrased the question...ah well... [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 10-15-2003, 05:01 PM   #44
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by The Hierophant:
quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
Lonely fella , God. If he wanted a conversation so badly, then why didn't he just ask ?
Because Christians use guilt as a weapon of social control. Make people feel selfish and wicked and bad about themselves and tell them that the only way to be better is to be penitent and submissive to the church It's worked for 1700 odd years now: there are self-sufficient, self-adapting Christian franchises all over the world. [/QUOTE]Hey come on mate, this is most unlike you. I don't use guilt as a weapon of social control. You've implicated me in this statement of yours, as I'm both Christian and a key player in establishing a new "franchise" in New York. Not really very fair of you bro.

The aims of our church and pretty much every church I've been a member of have included these:
1.Increasing individuals freedom from guilt - awareness of Jesus grace and forgiveness REMOVES guilt. Karma and religious Law contain guilt. Knowledge of Jesus contains feedom from that. It is a gross misunderstanding of Christianity in your claim. Strands of Catholicism that incorporated pergatory kept a guilt factor for certain, as do works-based sects such as Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons, and the Yom Kippur observing Jews, who must atone for their sins. Protestant Christianity is all about forgiveness of sins... not guilt! Please don't put words in MY mouth Heirophant.

The video "Forgiven" on my web site is a song containing precisely that idea. What do you think AMAZING GRACE, the age old Hymn is all about? It's freedom from condemnation, guilt, shame, hell, damnation, self loathing, vengence cycle, perfectionism, addictions and a world of other maladies.

2.Increasing an individuals self esteem.

3.Building a community of love and mutal care. Churches are just communities. They are the sum of their members. In an increasingly isolationist world, communities are Oasis of personality building elements. We don't encourage people to be subservient to THE CHURCH, but to put God before career, car, alcohol, sport - and any other deflating reality that will crash and burn if you make it your God - and to be rady to help each other. Subservience - your word not mine - to each other is all being part of a giving community is all about. Where you sow you reap. The communities I've served people in the most, I've always walked away feeling like I've received more than I've given.


Your post is hurtfully incorrect Heirophant. I'm sorry but you've offended me brother. I work tirelessly building my church precisely because I see it benefit people. I see people grow free from all sorts of addictions here in New York, and grow as capable, creative, brilliant humans, free from precisely the things you are claiming I'm seeking to enslave people with.

[ 10-15-2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 10-15-2003, 05:33 PM   #45
Chewbacca
Zartan
 

Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Karma and religious Law contain guilt.
I take exception to this. This is as much a blanket statement as Heirophants alleged "hurtful" one.

For some, Karma is about taking responibility and about forgiving. For some Karma *IS* God's/Nature's law of consequence. It is the enabler of all cause and effect, large and small, seen and unseen. Without Karma forgivness and compassion as well as guilt and fear could not be causes and would have no effect.

For some, Karma is the very principle that enables the cause and effect of Christ-likeness.

You may believe differently about Karma, Yorick, but don't paint all of us who believe in Christ and Karma with such a narrow brush.
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Old 10-16-2003, 12:24 AM   #46
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Karma and religious Law contain guilt.
I take exception to this. This is as much a blanket statement as Heirophants alleged "hurtful" one.

For some, Karma is about taking responibility and about forgiving. For some Karma *IS* God's/Nature's law of consequence. It is the enabler of all cause and effect, large and small, seen and unseen. Without Karma forgivness and compassion as well as guilt and fear could not be causes and would have no effect.

For some, Karma is the very principle that enables the cause and effect of Christ-likeness.

You may believe differently about Karma, Yorick, but don't paint all of us who believe in Christ and Karma with such a narrow brush.
[/QUOTE]Chewbacca, Heirophant made a blanket comment about PEOPLE. The Church being a collection of people, myself being included.

I'm making a comment about certain ideas. They are factual ideas nonetheless.

If a Hindu breaks a statue of Shiva, the CONSEQUENCE is a certain amount of Karma. There is no forgiveness from that. One can attempt to redress the balance and by good works earn Dharma that may counteract the Karmic retribution, but nonetheless the person is GUILTY of their action.

Jesus grace counteracts any CONSEQUENCE of sin. It directly counters Karmic retribution and consequences of negative actions. A slave trader who lived a life of murder was the one who wrote "amazing grace". After accepting Jesus his life changed dramatically, but this was a RESULT of, not a PROVISION for his salvation. Unlike Dharma, no human EARNS grace. It is freely offered to everyone who wants it, including yourself.

Without the Jewish Law there is no guilt in Christianity. Without Karma there is no negative consequence, nothing that keeps a record of wrongs, so I stand by what I said:

Karma and Law - which measure a persons actions against an impassive comparison - by their very nature create guilt and culpability in a person. The theology of Jesus saving grace by comparison removes a person from guilt and culpability. That is what Grace and forgiveness is all about.

[ 10-16-2003, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 10-16-2003, 02:16 AM   #47
Chewbacca
Zartan
 

Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Karma and religious Law contain guilt.
I take exception to this. This is as much a blanket statement as Heirophants alleged "hurtful" one.

For some, Karma is about taking responsibility and about forgiving. For some Karma *IS* God's/Nature's law of consequence. It is the enabler of all cause and effect, large and small, seen and unseen. Without Karma forgiveness and compassion as well as guilt and fear could not be causes and would have no effect.

For some, Karma is the very principle that enables the cause and effect of Christ-likeness.

You may believe differently about Karma, Yorick, but don't paint all of us who believe in Christ and Karma with such a narrow brush.
[/QUOTE]Chewbacca, Heirophant made a blanket comment about PEOPLE. The Church being a collection of people, myself being included.

I'm making a comment about certain ideas. They are factual ideas nonetheless.

If a Hindu breaks a statue of Shiva, the CONSEQUENCE is a certain amount of Karma. There is no forgiveness from that. One can attempt to redress the balance and by good works earn Dharma that may counteract the Karmic retribution, but nonetheless the person is GUILTY of their action.

Jesus grace counteracts any CONSEQUENCE of sin. It directly counters Karmic retribution and consequences of negative actions. A slave trader who lived a life of murder was the one who wrote "amazing grace". After accepting Jesus his life changed dramatically, but this was a RESULT of, not a PROVISION for his salvation. Unlike Dharma, no human EARNS grace. It is freely offered to everyone who wants it, including yourself.

Without the Jewish Law there is no guilt in Christianity. Without Karma there is no negative consequence, nothing that keeps a record of wrongs, so I stand by what I said:

Karma and Law - which measure a persons actions against an impassive comparison - by their very nature create guilt and culpability in a person. The theology of Jesus saving grace by comparison removes a person from guilt and culpability. That is what Grace and forgiveness is all about.
[/QUOTE]First, It would not be hard to substantiate Heirophants opinion, one which I agree with in large part. Perhaps he did not choose his words carefully and painted with a much broader brush than I would, but that does not change the fact I agree with the gist of his statement. The mere fact so many self-proclaimed Christians have attempted to shame him into repentance for his opinion speaks for itself. I know first-hand Christians who reject using fear and shame to attack people who believe differently and/or bring people in their fold. I have encountered other Christians who use shame and fear like a sword to slay non-believers and dissenting believers like myself.

Second, You are mistaking your opinion and beliefs for fact and evidently drawing conclusions about Karma from incomplete or perhaps even biased information. Your first mistake is assuming that Hinduism is the only religion with a concept of Karma. Your second mistake is assuming that concept falls into a very narrow and distinct definition. The definition of Karma you offered is a correct analysis of one way Karma is perceived or interpreted but certainly is not the only way.

You have made some very narrow generalizations about a much broader idea. Though I wont shame you for it. I will simply state where I stand. Obviously, the undeniable fact I believe differently stands for itself.

I have already illustrated my personal belief how Karma, AKA the God's universal law of cause and effect, is the very vehicle by which forgiveness transforms guilt. This is not an uncommon belief, I could point out several good books on the topic.

Is it ridiculous for you to maintain that your belief and opinion about Karma is absolute fact, when obviously I have a very different idea than the one you propose? I have no need to proclaim my proffered beliefs and opinions as fact though. They are what they are.

Finally I think some of your statements about Christians are generalizations in and of themselves. I know Christians who believe the exact same thing about Karma that I do. You can speak for yourself, and perhaps your denomination, but you certainly dont speak for *ALL* of Christiandom or all believers of Christ. I am evident of this just being myself and typing what I have typed.

Also, Christians are quite capable of feeling guilty and committing sins. They do everyday. Being capable of forgiveness doesn't give anyone a pass to commit transgressions or put them above the Universal law in my belief and opinion. Once again, I have no need declare this as fact, it is well enough my belief and my opinion.
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Old 10-16-2003, 02:27 AM   #48
Cerek the Barbaric
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
 

Join Date: October 29, 2001
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 3,257
Quote:
Originally posted by Vaskez:
Oh forget it, I've had enough to last me a lifetime of Christianity dissers and jokers. People start having bloody heart attacks and popping blood vessels when there is an injustice against a woman or a black person or any minority group or anything "politically incorrect" is said. But it's ok to rip the piss out of Christians, completely ridiculing their beliefs and laughing at their teachings? Sometimes I feel like kicking some serious ass around here. Some people who don't even have the foggiest what they're talking about spout utter crap 99% of the time. Religious debates are completely useless on forums, I've learned that much, that's why I'm not getting into it. So let's just leave it at that.
I wouldn't have put it so bluntly myself, but I agree with a lot of what you said here, Vaskez. There was a time when we were able to have some very interesting and informative discussions about religion here at IW, but those days seem like ancient history now. The difference then was that the members in those previous discussions remained respectful in their comments even when their theoligies were in complete opposition to those of other members. I took part in several discussions with Wiccans, pagans, agnostics, atheists, and even Satanists. I didn't agree with a lot of what they said, but - by remaining respectful of their beliefs - I gained a lot of valuable insight and knowledge I wouldn't have otherwise.

But I don't see much evidence of that mutual respect any more. And because of that, I don't have much desire to participate in these discussions any more either.
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Old 10-16-2003, 03:57 AM   #49
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
This is ridiculous. Chewbacca, we're speaking English. As such, words have specific meanings. You can't simply decide a word means whatever you want it to. If "Karma" doesn't work for you then don't use it. Don't go attempting to redefine the definition simply because it doesn't fit into your belief system.

As such I introduced the term in the correct historical and English usage. Perhaps I should have defined my terms more correctly. In any case, you took exception to my words so I shall clarify them.

Karma in my argument means this:

kar·ma
Pronunciation: 'kär-m& also 'k&r-
Function: noun
Etymology: Sanskrit karma fate, work
Date: 1827
1 often capitalized : the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence


----------------
from this site:
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/freenet/r...hs/karma2.html
Quote:
The Law of Karma
In Buddhist teaching, the law of karma, says only this: `for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful.' A skillful event is one that is not accompanied by craving, resistance or delusions; an unskillful event is one that is accompanied by any one of those things. (Events are not skillful in themselves, but are so called only in virtue of the mental events that occur with them.)

Therefore, the law of Karma teaches that responsibility for unskillful actions is born by the person who commits them
---------------

It's ridiuclous the way that you'll use a pre-existing word that has a specific meaning, and then act as though the word means whatever you deem it should. Like "Christ". Do you even understand what the word means? It simply means "Annointed one". When you use words like "ones inner Christ" it becomes ludicrous. Ones inner annointed one? "Christ was an honorific accorded Yeshua, not a name he was born with. It has exactly the same meaning as "Messiah". Do you refer to your inner messiah? Pre-existing meanings are important when discussing Chewbacca, otherwise confusion reigns.

In the context of my discourse, what I said about Karma holds and I see no reason to retract it. If ever I speak of Karma, I am speaking of the historical Buddhist, Hindu and Jainist word, term and idea, not some reinvented definition of you or another American pseudo-amalgamators choosing.

Secondly, I maintain, a generalisation was made on peoples motivations. A huge generalisation that inclued me in it's umbrella. This is very different to making a comparitive comment on a worldview - on a set of ideas - as held by a billion odd people.

Like it or not Karma is the measurement of a persons actions, as held by the overwhelming majority of people who adhere to it's reality. As such, it is the applier of guilt and consequence and effect for a persons actions. Jewish "Law" does exactly the same thing, which is why I used both.

The idea of the sinless Yeshua dying on the cross, and paying the ultimate price in the place of humanity is one that places people who accept his atonement outside of that consequence. Outside of Law, outside of Karma.

Your protestations merely serve to distract from what I was actually saying. That accepting Yeshua, REMOVES GUILT. Christians full of the awareness of Yeshuas love should be walking around guilt free. If there is guilt, it is a flaw in the believers mindset, as it is not co-aligning with Yeshuas promises and teaching that they have accepted.

Let's not walk down a bizzarre path of confusing terms that have nothing to do with what I was speaking about, nor the topic at hand.
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Old 10-16-2003, 04:30 AM   #50
Chewbacca
Zartan
 

Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
Your the one sowing confusion here Yorick, with your belittlement, guilt trips, insuations and accusations.

Do you really know what Christ means when I use the word? What it feels on the inside of ME to have a relationship with Christ? Do you know what it means to know and nuture your own Christ-consciousness? Because thats what I am all about when I talk about inner-christ. I speak of a personal spiritual transformation.

Do you mean to belittle my beliefs I have shared! Well fine, feel real good about yourself okay, enjoy yourself. I challenged your use of a limited definition of a concept, of a word and in return you have personally attacked my spiritual beliefs, opinions and ideas because they do not do not fit your own, and I wont take it.

To think how hurt you acted because someone made a half-true generalization and then to turn around and belittle my personally knowledge and understanding of Christ.
That's TRULY ridiculous and quite revealing.

Are you so closed minded you cannot believe that Karma has more than one defintion? Are you so hell-bent to demonize every religion but your own you won't open your eyes to ideas that may not have cross your path before?

I did not pull this concept and defintion of Karma out of my ass, it is as old as hermetic philosophy and thats pretty damn ancient.

You know what, it is irrelevant. I have declared my beleifs and refuted your narrowing of the concept of Karma and how it fits with Christianity. What ever you say from this point on is irrelevant because it will obviously come from your desire to push your beliefs and belittle those that are different.

Somebody stick a fork in this thread, its done!
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