Protests Turn Violent - and Wine Bashing???

[Timber Loftis]

Well, if you thought wine-bashing was bad check out what the French protestors in Bordeaux did:


But Wait! There's more.....

Today's NY Times:

Protests Turn Violent in Australia and Spain By BRIAN KNOWLTON, International Herald Tribune Protests against the war in Iraq continued around much of the world today, with demonstrators turning violent in Australia and Spain, and defacing in France a pre-eminent American symbol: a replica of the Statue of Liberty. Some of the largest rallies and bitterest clashes have come in Australia and Spain, whose governments support the American-led war, though the recent number of protesters has not matched the turnouts just before or immediately after the outbreak of war. A protest in Sydney, the latest in what has become a continuing series of demonstrations around Australia, left three police officers injured and more than 60 protesters under arrest, Agence France-Presse reported. Demonstrators hurled chairs at police and pelted them with golf balls during what was described as a pitched battle. Protests halted traffic in other Australian cities, including Perth, where about 500 students hurled paint and tomatoes at the United States Consulate General, and a dozen were arrested. More than 10,000 students demonstrated against the war in Madrid, at the central Puerta del Sol. As the Spanish protests have turned bitter, even the normally popular monarch, King Juan Carlos I, has become a target. Some demonstrators in Madrid carried signs ("Straw King," one said) criticizing the king for what they see as his passive support of the government's pro-war line. The Basque Nationalist Party spokesman, Inaki Anasagasti, suggested in the Spanish Parliament on Tuesday that Juan Carlos had made himself a "figurehead for ceremonies" by refusing to stand apart from the government line. This, Spanish news reports said, was an "unprecedented attack" on the king, who has limited himself to expressing "great concern" about the war and hoping for its quick end. There were clashes in Barcelona, as well. An estimated 300 demonstrators tossed bottles, garbage and eggs at an official of the governing Popular Party, which supports the war in Iraq. Alberto Fernández, a mayoral candidate last year in Barcelona, accused the protesters of beating him. The party, which alone among major Spanish political groupings supports the war, said 120 of its offices had been vandalized or attacked by demonstrators. "We are talking about people throwing bottles and excrement, smashing windows, writing insulting graffiti," an exasperated Javier Arenas, secretary-general of the party, told reporters. "What type of pacifism are we talking about?" In Bordeaux, France, vandals poured gasoline and paint today over a replica of the Statue of Liberty. Mayor Alain Juppe, a former French prime minister, condemned the attack. An earlier version of the statue had been melted down by German occupiers in World War II. The replacement was raised in 2000, and a plaque, added later, commemorated victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States. Governments in several Middle Eastern countries have watched with concern as protesters have mixed anti-American messages with criticism of the Arab governments that have cooperated, more or less discreetly, with the American-led military effort. In Jordan, where King Abdullah II has permitted American, British and Australian troops — reported to be mainly special forces — to operate from the eastern border region with Iraq, protesters chanted, "Shame, shame, they sold Ruweished," a border town, "for a dollar." Facing strong public opposition to the war, Abdullah has depicted the presence of coalition forces as defensive and has opened Jordanian airspace only to coalition supply planes. Several hundred Palestinian writers, journalists and intellectuals marched today through Gaza City to protest the war and call on Arab leaders to speak out forcefully against the invasion of Iraq. "We support the people of Iraq and their great resistance to the American and British aggressors," Tawfiq abu Hussa, vice president of a journalists union, told the crowd. Also today, Egypt formally complained to Syria about demonstrations in Damascus in which protesters denounced President Hosni Mubarak as an American puppet. Thailand saw its largest antiwar protest yet today, as about 20,000 Muslims rallied peacefully in the southern city of Songkhla. The Thai government has taken a neutral position on the war. Several Pakistani cities saw new protests today. There was a protest in Srinagar, India, as well, where Muslim students shouted, "Iraqis will defeat infidels." And in Ndjamena, the capital of Chad, riot police used tear gas today to disperse more than 100 students from Islamic schools who were protesting the war. Police said the march was not authorized.

[Masklinn]

Liberty Statue crying tears of blood is a symbolic (and even a bit artistic) act.

Don't mix that with protests turning violent.

[ 03-26-2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Masklinn ]

[Timber Loftis]

You complain and call it violent when someone bashes their *own* bottle of wine, yet you call blatant vandalism "art." You have at last made it blatantly obvious that your morals are dictated by pro-France more than they are dictated by any set of logical rules.

Inconceivable.

In Bordeaux, France, vandals poured gasoline and paint today over a replica of the Statue of Liberty. Mayor Alain Juppe, a former French prime minister, condemned the attack.

[ 03-26-2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Barry the Sprout]

100% agree Masklinn - I don't see thats quite as bad as a violent protest. Or even bad at all, I personally quite like the symbolism of it. Its a legitimate way of making a point. Remember that the protestors aren't attacking what the Statue stands for - far from it, they're saying that what it stands for is not being upheld.

As for violent protests, I know personal experience counts for diddly squat in the great scheme of things worldwide but as an anecdote this is quite an effective one. I've been on a hell of a lot of protests over the years, including many in which bits of them got violent. I've never once seen a protestor attack a policeman - I've seen a hell of a lot of policemen attack protestors though. I'm not saying they're all crazed psycho's but there is a certain locker room hard-man mentality in the police force that isn't present in the protestors I find. But thats just my experience.

[Masklinn]

(The text you quoted don't fit with the picture I was commenting.)

The statue has not been destroyed. She is just crying some tears of blood. Nothing that can't be fixed. It's not as violent as pouring wine...

I understand that the sight of Liberty Statue crying blood of tears can make you mad, but then please understand that a bunch of guys pouring french wine on streets didn't make me happy as well.

Logic, logic, where are you in these time of troubles...

[Ronn_Bman]

Looks like vandelism of public property to me, but as a form of protest, it certainly is better than violence. I wonder what the artist who created Lady Liberty would have thought. I wounder if he'd have seen it as adding to his creation?

Barry, I know Masklinn's position, but I have to ask. Do you think pouring out bottles of wine is a violent,destructive protest?

[Ronn_Bman]

Would it have been just as artistic if paint had been poured on a painting in a museum?

[Masklinn]

Nope cause it would have then destroyed the paint.

[Thoran]

Strictly speaking it's vandalism of public property. I agree with Timber that vandalism is significantly different than protest by wasting personal property (pouring your wine on the ground)... which is perfectly legal.

Having said that I think it's a poignant statement, and as an "affront" to the other side of the debate the two actions are of a similar magnitude.

I would like to PERSONALLY offer to destroy wine for any Americans who wish to protest. Simply send me your bottles of evil French wine and I will break the bottles in a very antagonistic manner (I might even make a mad face or something). I'll even send a picture of the broken bottle as proof that I've broken it.

If you don't happen to see any contents around all the broken glass... rest assured that it will eventually end up in the ground, I will simply do some "processing" on the contents before I dump that on the ground.

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Looks like vandelism of public property to me, but as a form of protest, it certainly is better than violence. I wonder what the artist who created Lady Liberty would have thought. I wounder if he'd have seen it as adding to his creation? Barry, I know Masklinn's position, but I have to ask. Do you think pouring out bottles of wine is a violent,destructive protest?

Ah, the way I read it they built the statue themselves to take on the protest, and poured paint on it to simulate tears. The burning the statue thing is a bit weird - its still ok by me, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense as far as I'm concerned. What are they trying to say by burning the Statue of Liberty? That they hate liberty? Ah well, the world is full of idiots - and some of them agree with me on the war... It figures. Suffice to say I like the symbolism of the statue crying tears of "blood", but not burning the thing.

So throwing paint at a picture would not be the same - unless it was their picture. I read the article as saying that this was their statue, hence I have no problem with it.

As to the wine pouring - I understand it was a symbolic gesture. But it was a symbolic gesture, by the nature of the protest, against the country of France in general. Not the policy makers or leaders of that country. By destroying wine on the basis of it being French the only symbolic message you give out is that French things are disagreeable to you for some reason. You do not give out the idea that French policy is disagreeable - to do that via consumer action you would have to destroy the produce of the French policy makers and leaders. Seeing as they do not make produce this is kind of impossible - but that doesn't make settling for the next best thing a good move in my opinion! Basicaly thats why I'm against boycotts in general as a form of protest against a policy of a government - be they France, Isreal, or the US. I've always been against the British left's move for a boycott of Isreali goods for this very reason, something which quite regularly gets me into arguments with leftist friends. Just so you know I'm consistant...

[ 03-26-2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Barry the Sprout ]