Improved Parry/expertise

[shadowolf03]

They are the same right?

What are the prerequisites for them?

I'm making a Weapon Master!

My character started off as a paladin/fighter and soon he shall fall from grace (following Aribeth's betrayal) and become a more vicious fighter rather than the law upholding pillar he once was...

[T-D-C]

They are not the same.

Improved Parry: The character gains a +4 bonus to his opposed attack roll when using the parry skill.

I.e Not very good as parry only give you the change to parry 3 attacks no matter how many attaks you have.

Requires a INT of 13+

Expertise:

You get a +5 to your AC but a -5 to your attack roll.

Good for creatures that can hit you hard but arn't hard to hit.

Requires a INT of 13+

Most fighters only use expertise to get to the Weapon Master class as it is a skill that is required for this class.

[shadowolf03]

13!!!!! Does intelligence gained by items count when choosing the class? or does my base intelligence have to be 13?

[T-D-C]

nope base intelligence has to be 13. reason being that to perform a parry or have any type of expertise you need to be smart. Thus the intelligence requirement.

[shadowolf03]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH

That just messed up my hours of planning for my character...*sigh*

Hmmm what shall my fallen paladin become? Don't want him to become too evil ie blackguard...

[shadowolf03]

Okay new question!!!!!

Can the rogue class get the Exotic weapon feat?

[Zink Whistlefly]

Rogues can get Exotic Weapons feat.

Hey T-D-C,

I think they changed Improved Parry at some point. It certainly used to be the case that you got a +4 bonus to attack and damage when making riposte attacks, but now they've changed it so that improved parry merely grants you a +4 bonus to your parry skill! That really annoyed me because the improved attack rolls actually made parry quite effective, but like you say you cannot parry more than 3 attacks per round now, you do not get any combat bonuses, and worse still you can only parry 1 single attack at a time. When facing off against 2 goblins, regardless to the number of attacks you possess (and whether you are dual wielding or not) - if the 2 goblins make simultaneous attacks at you you will only parry one of them!

Parry could have been such a useful skill, but is now virtually useless. Like the tumble skill, which not only helps you in combat, but also passivly grants you AC bonuses every 5 ranks, the parry skill would have been good if attacks could automatically be parried to some degree when not using parry mode. Something like every 5 ranks your AC improves, or you have a certain percentage chance of blocking a hit when in normal combat mode.

[ 03-24-2005, 04:37 AM: Message edited by: Zink Whistlefly ]

[Legolas]

Parry has its uses. It's by no means the best of feats though, since you can only improve it at a rate on one per level; which is about the attack bonus increase fighter classes receive. Against them, it'll never be better than it is at level 1 (not counting dex bonusses, but then, those would be offset by str bonusses on the other end).
However, rogue classes and casting classes advance their ab a little more slowly and don't normally exceed 3 attacks per round. They also don't spend as many attribute points and feats on improving their attack bonus.
To make the most of it you'll need the two skillfocus feats, the improved parry, and all the ranks in the skill you can get. Bonus items like (epic) gloves are also welcome. Epic Dodge is a good safety net.
Even then, parry is best used against a difficult enemy to stall him while the rest of your party (you do have a party, right?) makes their hits count. Or, in a RP battle. Sure, it can be over in seconds, one of you victorious and taunting the corpse of the other. But isn't it much more fun if it takes ages, and you have the time to type out some of those taunts during the confrontation with your nemesis?

On the whole though, it is much more of an investment than the improved evasion is, and more limited as well. Unless the module prohibits it, you can even use improved evasion on your wizard while casting spells. On anything but touch attacks, that's a +10 AC bonus for just 2 feats (compare with the epic Armour Skin). Great to block those spell disruption attempts. For characters against superiour enemies, it's another great bonus. If you only hit the enemy on a 19 or 20, and the enemy hits you on 11's, where is the downside in both hitting eachother on a 20 only? Sure, you may still slowly be losing the fight, but maybe healing potions or kits give you the hitpoints you need to come out on top. Failing that, there's always those partymembers. Improved Expertise, especially at low levels where AC matters so much, is as valid an option for stalling as parry is, and more user friendly, and effective against multiple enemies, and when casting or drinking a potion. The main downside here is that the AC bonus does not increase with levels.

[shadowolf03]

Therefore i could make a Weapon Master out of a rogue! When i level up however, i intend to put points into strength rather than dex.

That shouldn't affect things like dodge, mobility, uncanny dodge effectiveness should it?

If i put my points into dex those feats would naturally be better, but it should make too much of a difference right?

[ 03-24-2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: shadowolf03 ]

[robertthebard]

Yes, you can make a weapon master from a rogue, it just takes longer than it would for a fighter, reason being number of feats fighters get.
As for Dodge/Mobility, if you have the min dex to get the feats, then your in, problem is that lock/trap skills are also dex dependant, and use the dex bonus you have in addition to the points you actually assign there.
Another consideration is Epic Dodge, where the first attack of every round, from every enemy involved, misses. I can tell you, that is extremely useful against some enemies, and can save your chars life, depending on your ac, they may not be able to hit you on less than a 20 after their first attack, and this cuts down on the number of crits as well. At least, devastating ones...Epic dodge requires a 25 dex, plus Dodge, Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, and 30 ranks in tumble. That last will add an additional 6 points of ac, as a dodge modifier. I'd say, best bet is high dex and light armor.