A "healthy god debate"

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I'm starting this thread in response to a post made by FelixJaeger in this thread

Feel free to jump in and add your thoughts.

Originally posted by FelixJaeger: I just wanna say I dont believe in god thats the main reason i keep posting in here becuase i want a nice healthy god debate, i think thats why most ppl take it seriously, To be honest I used to believe in God till my church used Harry Potter in one of its sermons and i thought WTF? a film? man thats too much, have they already ran out of enough bible to use a film And from then on i havent really believed much people have told me, stupid church making me a non believer in anything except that we all die and rot...

If your church used Harry Potter in a sermon, then it must have been recent. I know several churches were opposed to the movies and I have a good friend who would not let his children go to the movies because of the content.

Why not?? Because the Bible warns Christians to have nothing to do with anything remotely associated with magic. One of the more common passages dealing with is found in Deutoronomy 18: 9-12.

[9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[12] For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


This is also why many churches are opposed to Dungeons & Dragons and other games or movies of this genre. I don't fault those (like my friend) who HAVE "checked out the game or movies" for themselves and decided it is something they don't want their children to see or play. I understand that. I have some games on my computer that I don't want my boys playing either (like Duke Nuke'em).

I do think the "danger" presented by this type of medium is exaggerated, but we've all heards stories of kids that became too obsessed with a "fantasy game" and began "acting it out" - so there is some justification to at least be wary of it.

Ach.....I'm in a hurry right now and I'm already getting my own thread "off topic". I'll leave for awhile and give others a chance to express their viewpoints.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

One final thought.

It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Anyone who participates in this discussion should respect the opinions of everyone else, whether you agree with them or not.

Do NOT insult the person NOR their viewpoint. You can disagree without being insulting and each person's opinion or viewpoint is just as valid as the everybody else's.

So play nice and NO FLAMING!

[FelixJaeger]

Wow Cerek, if only you could have said it like that when they were telling me id burn in hell if i saw the film .
I think i was starting to 'lose the faith' before that mainly due to my youth group. We used to split into groups and have lots of God discussions. Our group would meet up on a wednesday, and have some enlightened debates about god, it has recently been threatened to be shut down by some people from the church because they do not pray enough, so there going to lose five or six guys from a very small communtiy of young christians. that is something else that makes me wonder if they have their ideals right.
I would say it was more the way christianity is delivered than what it is that drives people away. It says in the bible we were born evil and then all of a sudden we cant do anything wrong unless we fear being the outcast of the church, i dont think it should work like that.
Im not sure about God and if he exists but if he exists and he can make this world then why would he care anything for me or anyone else? Someone infinitely powerful cares for something that is infinitely powerless even in the most basic things like knowing the difference between right and wrong?
Wow I wrote a lot.
Felix
p.s. thanks Cerek for dedicating this to me I feel so priveledged, but i agree that we should keep this flame free, mayhaps we could ask a moderator to take part and delete any flame posts?

[ 05-04-2003, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: FelixJaeger ]

[Attalus]

Well, I think that jumping from believing to atheism on the basis of one sermon is a bit extreme, but it may have been a case of "the straw that broke the camel's back." Personally, I have been a believer since youth, and nothing in all of the science I have learned (B.Sc. in Biology, Tulane University; M.D., Southwestern Medical School) has made me think anything but, "Hm, so that is how He did it."

[johnny]

Stupid question maybe, but if the church is so much opposed to magic, then how do you call it when Jesus feeds hundreds of people with only one basket of bread ? Or when he made a criple walk again ? That sounds suspiciously much like magic to me. Or is that considdered a miracle ?

[Mojo]

A healthy God debate? Sounds like fun....

Personally, I find it dificult to belive in anything, in the religious sense of the word. This is because I feel that blind faith is ignorance. They say that proof denys faith, but I don't understand why I *should* belive in something for which there is no proof, and so I can't.

Having said that, what qualifies as proof is different for everyone. You could say that a "scientific" method of proof can be wrong, or could be simply a test of faith. I think the latter is an ignorant view, however I wouldn't think anything less of anyone who does have faith. I do, however, not take kindly to people trying to convert me, especially when they say it's "for my own good".

I apologise if some of that doesn't make sense....

[WillowIX]

So what are we debating in this healthy debate? I have read through your 1st post three times now Cerek and I am still none the wiser. Are we debating God? Or are we debating the use of Harry Potter in a sermon? [img]graemlins/confused2.gif[/img]

I am a "nonbeliever", and I always have been. I doubt I will change my mind. Where some people see Gods beauty I see the beauty of nature and the interaction between countless particles.

What I find interesting is that a person who does not believe in God is an atheist or a nonbeliever. Do not these persons believe? Yes we do, but we choose to believe in something else than God or to believe in "nothing". [img]smile.gif[/img]

I am sorry if I went off topic. (see my first paragraph )

Edit: Incomprehensible grammar.

[ 05-04-2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

[Gangrell]

I believe in God, but some people would find it hard that I do. I haven't been to church in... years quite honestly but I'm still a big believer in him. As to why I believe in him, weither it would be from since I was little, I was raised to believe in him, it's just the fact that I choose to. But the one of the main reasons (and I'm not saying this is the reason) that I've personally heard why people choose not to believe in God is because of this arguement "If God exists, why does he let all these bad things happen in our world?" Well, I think that God made man so he could control his own destiny, and when he did this man took responsibility for himself and for other around him. Things that happen, bombings, murders, and so forth isn't God's fault, because those happenings are done by sick individuals and really doesn't have anything to do with God.

Well, that's my 2 cents

[Timber Loftis]

You religious idiots are all losers!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/kidding.gif[/img] Just a slight jab at the "flame free" request. God debates happen here and happen well. Last time I posted one, I was roundly complimented on the size of my cohones, but it went off just fine.

Felix, Attalus touches the tip of an iceberg of a good point. My church twice drove me from religion. ONce due to an overbearing pastor who, in response to me requesting help getting to know God, made me sit with him and do the "accept me into your heart" prayer bit over and over. Finally, I relented and LIED, said I felt enlightened, and was Christened as "saved." A bad scene really. Second time - another church another place - an idiot youth group leader who argued me on the point that Mormonism (and when I pressed him on it, Catholocism too) is a CULT and not a religion. That soured me too.

But, I should not have let a few people's comments drive me away. One idiot extremist (or a few) in a church can cause many faithful to flock elsewhere. You may have been a victim of this.

Many people try many different churches before they find one they like. Look around. Questioning God? Go to tabernacle, and go to mass, and go to other forms of religious worship. There are many flavors out there, and you owe it to yourself to see what religious points different sects are devoted to differing about.

I still like going to church upon rare occassion. And, if it's different than one I've ever been to, then great. The bible is full of wonderful metaphors and ethics, some very very deep. One instance: the doctrine of the woman stepping in to intervene when the man fails in his duty, as evidenced when Mary circumcised Jesus, thereby preventing God from smiting Joseph for failing in his duty as a Jew. (Did I get that right you more knowledgable folks? It was Mary and Joseph, right?) Anyway, this made for a great Mother's Day sermon in a black church I once heard.

My point is -- KEEP INVESTIGATING.

Until you have decided, like I have, that there is no god and no afterlife, you owe it to yourself to check out everyone else's ideas about god. And, then you still owe it to yourself to keep investigating anyway.

[Mojo]

Gangrell, if God made humans to control their own destiny, why must we still worship him, and do as he says? I don't mean to sound nasty, but it looks like a hole in your argument. But then, I could be wrong....