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Old 09-24-2001, 06:13 AM   #1
Silver Cheetah
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: July 26, 2001
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,781
I am tired of the assumption that the Palestinians are simply terrorists, whilst Israeli actions are justified. This is the most arrant nonsense.

Palestine is Arab, not Jewish. (See figures below.) My fundamental point is that Israel had no right moving into Palestine in the first place. It was already occupied by a native people, who although they had no objection to Jews living there, side by side with them, did not want to see a Jewish state established slap bang in the middle of their country.

A bit of history....

Fundamentalist Zionists first started moving into Palestine with a view to eventually establishing a Zionist state in the late 19th century. (Previous to that, ordinary Jews had existed side by side with Arabs relatively peacably. Arabs didn’t have a problem with Jews at that time). What they very soon began to have a problem with was fundamentalist Zionists trying to take signficant portions of their country away from them.

Some words from Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’. (This was written well before the holocaust, in the late 19th century. The aim was to ‘redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.)

In the 21st century, the Israelis continue to try to extend their original settlement in Palestine, - quite illegally, I might add, and aided and abetted by the US. (Without whose support, arms, funding etc they wouldn’t have got this far.) Understandably, the Palestinians continue to shout about it, and to try and DO something about it. What is so hard to understand about that? Every single one of you patriotic, homeland defending patriots would do the same.

It’s worth noting that it wasn’t until just a few months before the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel in 1948 that there was anything but a huge Arab population in Palestine. (1931 population – 174,606 Jews in a total pop of 1,033,314.) The idea that Palestine was a ‘land without a people for a people without a land’ is erroneous.)

The initial claim to Palestine, - that the Jews have a ‘right’ to the country based upon an occupation 2000 years ago, is laughable. (Zionists base their claims on Palestine on the kingdoms of David and Solomon. From David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., that is a 414 year Jewish rule. Any analogy with the native American people doesn’t actually hold, as if rights are established by length of time the land was occupied before the arrival of the coloniser, the native Americans would appear to have far more right to North America than the Jews do to Palestine.

Given these facts, it seems patently obvious to me that Israel’s actions against the Palestinians are NOT DEFENSIVE, THEY ARE OFFENSIVE (in all senses of that word). Its military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, assassinations, use of terror, demolition of Palestinian homes, routine use of torture and so on.... all are seen as defensive and justified, whereas Palestinian actions are seen as terror. This view is something that the politicians and the media the world over promote and encourage. What is Israel defending? Its people? Or its conquest and expansion program? (I do not defend Palestinian methods of getting their country back. But they are operating within the same paradigm as are all of you who are saying that attack is the only rational method of defence against attack. And the Palestinians sure are being attacked! The extent and scale of that attack has been stepped up over the last 34 years, as the Israelis have consolidated and expanded outwards, to claim yet more territory.)

To cut a long story short – if the Jewish people STOPPED their illegal attempts to extend their settlements into the West Bank and Gaza, and America stopped condoning and applauding their every illegal action, then matters might improve. Hopefully a first step has been taken towards that, with Washington’s recent intervention in the conflict.

But I would imagine that there will always be Palestinians who will resent that the Jews are in Israel at all. This is a delicate situation, which needs careful handling at a global level.

The truth of the matter is that the the British assisted the Jews into Palestine, and the Americans have helped keep them there.

What the Arabs are doing is resisting in the face of overwhelming odds. And if you don’t like the way they resist, well, most of the people here posting on the forum seem to be in total agreement that it is ok to defend your homeland, doing whatever it takes. WHY IS IT DIFFERENT FOR THE ARABS IN PALESTINE?

There’s a lot of double standards and hypocrisy on this forum with regard to the Middle East situation. I for one am sick of it..


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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-24-2001).]
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Old 09-24-2001, 07:41 AM   #2
Fljotsdale
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
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Interesting reading, Silver Cheetah, and you are correct.

However, you overlook one thing: The Jews are CONVINCED that the land belongs to them by God-given right, and that the Palestinians are trespassing on THEIR land.
Trying to alter that conviction is a futile exercise. There is little one can do to alter a strongly held (even fanatical) religious conviction - especially when fostering that conviction gets you what you want!
Of COURSE the Israelis are wrong by any standard of logic or ethics, but can you really see THEM ever being convinced? No. And, as you point out, America (nor anyone else in the West) does nothing much to prevent their overextension of 'rights' granted with scant regard for the Arab population.

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Old 09-24-2001, 07:48 AM   #3
Luther
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Join Date: July 11, 2001
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Thank god someone else on this forum is not a complete American-media-brainwashed idiot.
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Old 09-24-2001, 08:15 AM   #4
DragonMage
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Join Date: September 6, 2001
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Very interesting. I knew some of that, but not that much detail. Thanks SC!

Seems like this happens everywhere. Even America with the Native Americans. The 'natives' were happy to accept other people into THEIR country. Then some of the 'visitors' decided it was theirs and set about anhialating those who were here first. Senselessness!

And Luther: Even some of us Americans aren't "media-brainwashed" and

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Old 09-24-2001, 08:46 AM   #5
Shadowstrider
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Join Date: May 1, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luther:
Thank god someone else on this forum is not a complete American-media-brainwashed idiot.
Thank God. If you're going to use a monotheistic deity reference, at the very least, do it properly.

Additionally, simply stating that someone(or in this case everyone except for yourself and silver cheetah) is an idiot only makes YOU seem like an idiot.

Lets put it this way, the Israelis and the Palestinians are BOTH wrong, now both of them must go sit in Antarctica and work out a peaceful resolution

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Old 09-24-2001, 08:50 AM   #6
DragonMage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shadowstrider:
Lets put it this way, the Israelis and the Palestinians are BOTH wrong, now both of them must go sit in Antarctica and work out a peaceful resolution
Is this your version of putting them 'in the corner' until they behave?

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Old 09-24-2001, 08:56 AM   #7
Shadowstrider
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Join Date: May 1, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by DragonMage:
Is this your version of putting them 'in the corner' until they behave?

Yes-sah!



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Old 09-24-2001, 09:50 AM   #8
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
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Excellent post, SC.
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Old 09-24-2001, 10:07 AM   #9
WOLFGIR
Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Sweden
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Posts: 3,450
One more subject that needs to be looked upon. The Palestinians haven´t had their own country either. Go back in history and you will find that they were bunched together because nobody wanted them..

The buisness has gone to far from saying that either one of them is right or wrong. You have to stop all involved from firing..

This be a too complicated matter from answering right now with limited time.. Takes more time..



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Old 09-24-2001, 03:21 PM   #10
Rikard
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Interesting reading, Silver Cheetah, and you are correct.

However, you overlook one thing: The Jews are CONVINCED that the land belongs to them by God-given right, and that the Palestinians are trespassing on THEIR land.
Trying to alter that conviction is a futile exercise. There is little one can do to alter a strongly held (even fanatical) religious conviction - especially when fostering that conviction gets you what you want!
Of COURSE the Israelis are wrong by any standard of logic or ethics, but can you really see THEM ever being convinced? No. And, as you point out, America (nor anyone else in the West) does nothing much to prevent their overextension of 'rights' granted with scant regard for the Arab population.


The Jihad is also seen as a God-intendet thing
does that mean that IF (not when) the islamtic world would take over Europe as they need space we should allow it to prevent waR?

We saw what happend to Hitler and Austria and Sudeten land


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