I need some advice on a few dual-classed characters

[krunchyfrogg]

I know, I know, another thread by good ol' krunchy. Humor me. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I need some advice on some dual-classed characters, namely a Fighter -> Cleric and a Fighter -> Mage. In the party I have brewing in my head, there is a Paladin and Fighter/Druid muliticlass for healing before I have a Cleric, and a BArd to handle the wizardry until my Mage shows up to play. I also will give Insane mode a try, and am playing with "Tales of the Luremaster" installed.

So anyway, I need some advice on when to dual these two over into their spellcasting classes. I would really like the F>M to have *** in bow and be a grandmaster in either greatswords or largeswords. That's all well and good, I think I will dualclass at level 13, gaining maximum attacks. The F>C is where I really have a problem. I was messing around with dalekeeper, giving a fighter enough experience to get to level 9, to see how many proficiency slots I can put into missile (that has been a question I have never found a solid answer to, so I thought I would just figure it out for myself. Surprisingly, it's not like bow, and you can get 5 (*****) slots in missile weapon proficiency! Well, as cool as that is, it totally screws up my plans.

Do I dual the F>C at level 9, as a grandmaster in missile proficiency? Or do I make him a grandmaster in mace? What about level 13, for maximum attacks, and if so, which proficiency is maxed out, and which only has 3? Heck, while I'm at it, should I even consider going to level 18 as a Cleric and becoming a grandmaster in both missile and sling?

My style of play is to pelt bad guys with missile weapons and make them come to me. I don't know if I want a better pelter or a character who is very good with missile weapons, but extremely nasty if the enemy gets too close.

Which is more beneficial?

[Aerich]

I'd say Fighter/Cleric at lvl 9 (earlier access to all-party defensive spells, which druids lack) and Fighter/Mage at lvl 13 (makes a vicious and versatile tank).

The Fighter/Mage should go with greatswords or axes for grandmastery - longswords are covered by the paladin, and you don't need a shield much with Stoneskin and Mirror Image. Make your F/M a killer. You may also remember a discussion a while back about going with grandmaster in dagger, which could be intriguing, although I am still not convinced it would do more damage.

I would dual your cleric at lvl 9. Go with grandmastery in mace and specialization in slings. There are two reasons for this: first, as I said above, earlier access to a cleric's defensive spells is desirable. Second, it is more important to be better in a melee weapon because you are rarely vulnerable to attack when sniping, but always vulnerable to attack when in melee (if you can hit them, they can hit you). Therefore, doing more damage and hitting more often in melee has a greater proportional effect on the health of your character and even keeping your character alive. An extra couple of damage on your missiles isn't that vital, as you will be casting spells in many critical fights anyway. An 18 Dex plus Draw Upon Holy Might will give a lvl 9 fighter/cleric a pretty good chance to hit, so the extra attack bonus from high-level specialization isn't really necessary.

If you have to draw one of your main tanks away from the action due to injury, you need a character able to step up and fill in; the F/C is a prime candidate for this role.

[krunchyfrogg]

Thanks Aerich, good advice, and that's what I settled on! GMTA!

[ister]

Originally posted by Aerich: Second, it is more important to be better in a melee weapon because you are rarely vulnerable to attack when sniping, but always vulnerable to attack when in melee (if you can hit them, they can hit you). Therefore, doing more damage and hitting more often in melee has a greater proportional effect on the health of your character and even keeping your character alive. An extra couple of damage on your missiles isn't that vital, as you will be casting spells in many critical fights anyway. An 18 Dex plus Draw Upon Holy Might will give a lvl 9 fighter/cleric a pretty good chance to hit, so the extra attack bonus from high-level specialization isn't really necessary.

I think the conclusion is spot on, but I must object to some of the reasoning. Getting to 5 stars is not a question of 'an extra couple of damage on your missiles'. For a (level 9) slinger getting to GM is the difference between 2 apr and 3 apr. This does a lot more than a couple of extra points of damage, and has very big implications for spell disruption.

For Grand Mastery it's not the extra damage that matters, its the attacks per round.

That said, the fundamental point (that when your cleric isn't being attacked in melee he should be casting spells) is an excellent one. If you aren't using your spells it means that the battle isn't that important. Characters should be optimized for tough battles, not easy ones. And while GM in slings allows a fighter to contribute spell disruption against nasty casters, a cleric ought to have much better contributions to make in those battles.

Although I suppose a case could be made that optimizing a cleric for cast& attack tactics is a good idea. (Basically, with 3 apr with your sling you can get off two sling attacks on the back end of a round between the quicker spell castings, with only 2 apr you'll only get one.) I don't really buy this argument, and I tend to find cast & attack pretty cheesy.

[ 01-06-2006, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: ister ]

[Aerich]

I was exaggerating on missile damage to prove a point. The difference could be 25 dmg a round vs. 15 or so, comparing grandmastery with specialization. However, it is very much not worth waiting on the fighter levels from lvl 9-18 while the party on insane is getting its butt kicked from lack of clerical spells.

I absolutely agree that characters should be optimized for tough battles, not the day-to-day crushing of small bands of rarely-difficult enemies.

In krunchy's party, the best two characters to ensure spell disruption are the F/D and the dc F/M. The F/D uses summons, Insect Swarm, and Spike Growth, the F/M uses bow (messenger of sseth...) or spells (magic missile, acid arrow). The F/C sure doesn't need to delay its development for an extra ApR for disruption purposes.

[krunchyfrogg]

Originally posted by Aerich: You may also remember a discussion a while back about going with grandmaster in dagger, which could be intriguing, although I am still not convinced it would do more damage.

I don't remember this, and I can't seem to find it on a search.

If you can locate this thread, I'd love to read it! TIA!

[Aerich]

It was in the context of arguing about the best weapon choice for a dc druid.

Look here near the bottom of the first page.

The main benefit for a F/M with GM in dagger would be full-time use of the +4 mage dagger, meaning that it wouldn't lose spells for switching out the mage dagger when wanting to use a weapon with which the character had more skill.

[ 01-06-2006, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[Ultra Marine]

If I remember right, there is an axe which can return. So If you you put 5* for FM then you won't need bows/slings.

[krunchyfrogg]

That's a very interesting idea UM! I considered that one as well (there's also an axe with a bonus to AC found early on), but I ended up nixing it.

[Aerich]

Most of the time when I take 5 PP in a weapon, it is Axe, for that very reason. I might take a point or two in crossbow or bow until I get the axe, depending on whether the character is set up to be an early melee fighter or archer (depends on configuration of rest of party).