Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Lavindathar]

Of course I meant organised religion, but total religion free wouldn't be a bad thing.

Whats wrong with believing something, knowing you believe it, and being happy you believe it? Why do people have to try to enforce it on others? I.e praying in homes not in public, no churches/mosques whatever.

The world would be a better place.

And the "no religious talk" ban is stupid.

If people get offended, there is a button in the top right hand corner of the screen, it looks like this - " x "

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Lavindathar The difference would be Yorick, that if it was outlawed, no-one would be allowed to tell anyone what to believe

Except the people outlawing religion.

Seriously, it's been attempted. Russia, China with their atheist-legislated totalitarian states banned religion. Only problem is atheism is a worldview itself, so it was the attempt to enforce one worldview over others.

And it was only a daft thing to say, as it would never happen. But, I believe so many problems would be solved if some Jew 3000 years ago didn't write a story about a man who could walk on water....

But who's to say problems are in of themselves wholely bad? What would a computer game be without problems needing to be solved? I think there are reasons for negative situations, some of which are to allow us to actually know what positivity is, some of which allow us to develop aspects of ourselves that would never develop without 'problems'.

Secondly, we've had faith and religion since remembered culture began. If there wasn't a Jew walking on water, there'd be something else filling the void. Jesus came around when Emperor worship was in full throttle in Rome.

I know at least I prefer worshipping Jesus to worshipping the President or Queen Libby etc etc.

Religion causes more deaths per year than anything else. Including disease. I read that somewhere. Anyway, point being, religious wars etc, that constantly occur, and still do, cause deaths.

A person could argue that LIFE causes death. If only folks never lived, they'd never die!

If people didnt believe in anything, we'd all be friends. Instead we'd be killing people cos they stole our kit-kats.

I think that across the board, humans need to belief in something. We need hope to get through today into tomorrow. To be general, religions generally curb the animal inside us, and foster society. As a result, some societies end up more harmonious than others, just as some religions are more successful at providing what we need from them: Answers, meaning, love, purpose, and hope.

The conflict that arises when religions clash is often no different to clashes between any other set of competing elements. Nomad versus Agrarian, fighting because one wants to plant crops, and the other herd animals.

Many would say conflict is an inevitable part of humanity. We have INNER conflict, where competing desires fight inside us. "Should I stay or should I go".

People that love each other can hurt each other the most!

Obviously people can believe what they want, but I just hate religion for the pure fact impo, its put the world in its current state - a total mess.

Aha, but then what are you comparing the world to?
The "world is a mess" is an idea found in many religions themselves, as people strive to better themselves or their homes or their society.

If they're all false, and it's all bogus, the world can't be a mess... it just is what it is... right?

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Well, I certainly didn't expect the thread to take this sort of path. I guess maybe it was inevitable, looking back.

I will say though, that I'm not an expert on the old testament. I know there's some harsh stuff in there. That's God passing His judgment. I will not presume to understand it.

The New Testament teaches us something completely different. (my opinion only of course)

But both Proverbs and Romans tells us:
If your enemy is hungry/thirsty, give him food/drink.

Revelation 22 tells us to keep The Bible open. Meaning that it should be read. If we're not doing this, we have no one to blame but ourselves when the workers of iniquity come along and preach false doctrines.

I think everyone's been quite mature in this. That's the strength of this forum. We can respect each others opinion.

I know what I believe is right.
I know the scriptures tell us that some will be blinded to the truth. I'm not gonna push my views on anyone, but I'll share them if asked. And if Memnoch's post really were true, I think many people would really consider what I know to be truth. 'Cos when science and medicine and everything else fails, there's only God.

Uhh, where was I... ....oh yes! So, please Mr or Mrs or Ms terrorist or extremist, or whatever you are called: please forgive those who made a joke in poor taste. Please show grace, mercy and forgiveness.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Lavindathar Of course I meant organised religion, but total religion free wouldn't be a bad thing. Whats wrong with believing something, knowing you believe it, and being happy you believe it? Why do people have to try to enforce it on others? I.e praying in homes not in public, no churches/mosques whatever.

Because it depends on what they believe. Islam was founded as a state religion. To be practiced properly it needs to be the state religion - as per demands for Shari'a in majority muslim areas.

Other religious sects teach that you need to convert people to be saved. If that's what they believe, they need to be free to make the attempt. People are free to reject their attempts.

Other people just want to share out of compassion and love. My grandfather gave the analogy of christianity being like a starving beggar finding bread. He just wants to tell all the other starving beggars about where to find bread.

I mean how many people come on here and post about a great game, or a great film, or a great food, book or any other wonderful thing in their life.

If something wonderful happens, is it not a basic human need to share it? Perhaps not for all people, but certainly some.

It IS a fine line for many Christians I know between sharing what they've found, and respecting peoples right to not know. Many would hate to get to heaven and have some relative cry at them "why didn't you tell me it was that simple???" for example. Rightly or wrongly, that's a catch 22 people can find themselves in if they care about others.

I myself don't mind if people practice faith in public. As long as it's not child sacrifice or ritual rape... I also don't mind if people try and covert me, as long as it's not "covert or die" at the end of a gun.

I think within the west we have it pretty good compared with how it could be. Minor irritations, substancial freedoms. All things considered we're on a good wicket.

[Jaradu]

Wow, a religious discussion not being locked. As a proud and passionate atheist/secularist I've been 'praying' for an opportunity like this, but now that it's arrived I don't really know where to start. Guess I'll go back to what I do best, reading the posts of others. If I see a point worth making, I'll jump in. Until then, I'll just watch things pan out.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Originally Posted by Jaradu Wow, a religious discussion not being locked. As a proud and passionate atheist/secularist I've been 'praying' for an opportunity like this, but now that it's arrived I don't really know where to start. Guess I'll go back to what I do best, reading the posts of others. If I see a point worth making, I'll jump in. Until then, I'll just watch things pan out.

Well, at least you're praying!

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Beaumanoir OH NOES! AN INTERESTING DEBATE ON THE INTERNETZ!! Come on, mate. Heaven forbid we get an actual lively debate on a topic rather than re-hashed stories from Yahoo's Weird News. (Love you Bung ). Everyone's being civil and I, for one, find it interesting to hear others opinions.

Looks that way but....

1. Until you get PMs about how nasty a person you are for having an alternative opinion.

2. Religious discussion really only serves the interest of a few, some who take any opportunity to prostylize because in fact it is a religious obligation to do so. I consider prostylzing a distruption of a common-sense social code born out of a kind of egotism and insecurity. I also find it annoying imo.

3.Not all opinions are welcome, for no matter how heartfelt or reasonable someone will find them offensive.

4. Ironworks has been a nicer place without the religious conflict.

5. How gay people are treated by certain religions is audacious, no matter how sweetly they sugar-coat it. Why allow that?

I have more reasons, but these will suffice.

Besides,
There are more productive ways to learn about religion on the internet than a forum like this one.

[Jaradu]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood Well, at least you're praying!

Indeed! The Flying Spaghetti Monster welcomes all queries, comments, suggestions and requests.

[Dragonshadow]

I think I'm with Beau and Lav on this one. I don't believe in any religion (I came close to converting to Buddhism after going to Tibet for a while a coule of years ago, but that is a different story). To be honest, I don't see how people can believe in someone or something which there is no evidence to support.
Plus I'm cautios of religion after several of the times I have been attacked (mainly mental and verbal attacks) were from very religious people because I don't beleive in a god. That's not to say I hate religion - I do work for the salvation army, which I believe is a Christian charity, no? But I do agree with Lav that religion has caused a lot of problems, and while people have differing opinions on it, it will continue to do so.
Anyway, just my (poorly written down) thoughts. I haven't had enough coffee for religious discussions.

Oh and Lav - Steal my kit-kat and I'll come up there, buy pizza off your brother and throw them at you.

[Lavindathar]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca Looks that way but.... There are more productive ways to learn about religion on the internet than a forum like this one.

Chew, I think you need to just not read this thread again.

No-one is trying to teach, no one is trying to learn. We are discussing, or debating if you will. If moderators lock this, its stupid. If any posts are out of order, they should be deleted. No-one has mentioned anything negative, except you in your posts about nasty PMs.

If anyone btw, wants to send me a nasty PM about my views, go ahead, they are my views, and I will keep them and change them as I see fit.

All opinions ARE welcome, thats the point of a debate. Even if someone posted they believe all innocents should be murdered in the name of Allah. I for one would love that, and would love to debate with them on their opinions. Note, not argue. The point of an opinion is that it belongs to someone, and only he or she should and can change it. Others can't.

Now, back to the topic.

Now Yorick, "A person could argue that LIFE causes death. If only folks never lived, they'd never die!" comment to me seems like your being a little pedantic, and just want to reply to every other little point. Your other points however, seemed valid to me.

The Russia/China did attempt it with their communism, but in theory communism is the only way to live. In practice, its not communism, its a dictatorship behing closed doors. True communism, in theory, should work, and be the best way to live. If part of that is having no "state" relgion, good for it. Or do you argue the point that theoretically true communism is failed idea?

And maybe humans do need to believe in something. Why can't they believe in life, and living, instead of believing things that have no proof behind them, and lead to death?

Edit - if my points are a bit unclear, apologies im tired. But am willing to clarify anything in future posts if asked.