NO DM Client for NWN2? (There goes NWN2)

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally posted by robertthebard: .. snip.. Just a note; by definition, a sequel is an extension of the original, only better. .. snip..

se·quel (sē'kwəl)
n.
Something that follows; a continuation.
A literary, dramatic, or cinematic work whose narrative continues that of a preexisting work.
A result or consequence.

Being a sequel imples NOTHING about it being BETTER than the original, only that it continues a pre-existing work.

Originally posted by robertthebard: However, the same problems that face PW builders/players face any who would play MP. All the people that wish to play, as it stands right now, will have to have the entire module downloaded, not just custom content, but the entire module.

In mplayer, every player ALWAYS had to download the mod before in NWN - so NWN2 won't be ANY different in that regard. Granted, PW's weren't that way, but we'll come back to PW's again in a bit.

Originally posted by robertthebard: Imagine trying to do a project with the scope of Undermountain with that kind of limitations. I have HD space for it now, but I had to upgrade. It takes away from any online module, not just PW's. We don't even know if online modules will be possible, in the manner to which we have become accustomed, as we still have no answer about dedicated servers.

I totally agree that PW's are in BIG trouble with NWN2 as it currently stands; I never disputed THAT at all. My argument has always been that PW's are supported by a MINORITY of NWN game players and yet they somehow expect special treatment from the game manufacturers and are willing to dismiss the project as SHIT just because it doesn't fit THEIR ideas of what the game should be. Fine. As I said, they have their right NOT to buy the game.

Originally posted by robertthebard: Rideable mounts was promised, but they are out, and because they are out, Atari closed down any more modules to the online store at Bioware, because the DLA? team was releasing a mod with rideable horses/mounts. Now why block that content from saleable release, unless you are afraid it will take away from sales on your new product? What's so threatening about a community built module that would make Atari feel that way? Is it because, as has been suggested, that they know their product isn't up to what people that have been playing NWN's will expect? I'd say probably so, although I have no idea what the actual reasons are, and wouldn't care to venture a real guess.

I can only suspect that you answered the question yourself in the second sentence. "why block that content from saleable release, unless you are afraid it will take away from sales on your new product?" This is from the DLA team themselves:

"It needs to be remembered that TNO was premium content that belonged to BioWare and they were not going to release it or the cloaks while there was a reasonable chance of selling a module that used them. Castles and cloaks were long requested items by the community and they had significant value. That’s why we were asked to do them in the first place. Accordingly, any premium module that used these assets had significant potential value to the DD program if completed and shipped on time. This was the essence of the DD program and how it paid for the Live Team’s ongoing efforts. So, for those sitting at home wondering why BioWare just didn’t release the stuff, they reasonably believed they would reach the community’s hands. "

I think we're beating a dead horse here. The PW supporters arm firmly entrenched in the intention NOT to buy NWN2, for it's perceived lack of content. It's futile trying to convince them to change their minds - they were closed against NWN2 the minute their precious PW's bit the dust. NOTHING this game could provide would EVER make up that perceived slight. EVEN if EVERYTHING else (except PW support) that NWN provided were available, I doubt they would change their minds; and frankly I think that's where the dust is going to settle. NWN2 WILL/or already does promise everything that NWN did (toolset, dmclient, multiplayer capability, custom content - everything except PW support).

[robertthebard]

Uh, we don't have to download modules to play them online, in the case of modules like Undermountain, or in Fates, the other online module I play on. If you're going to play single player, then you have to download the module, but to play an online hosted module, you don't need the module to play. How many copies of Undermountain did you download before we played through there? I know that other than haks I haven't downloaded anything from Undermountain.

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally posted by robertthebard: Uh, we don't have to download modules to play them online, in the case of modules like Undermountain, or in Fates, the other online module I play on. If you're going to play single player, then you have to download the module, but to play an online hosted module, you don't need the module to play. How many copies of Undermountain did you download before we played through there? I know that other than haks I haven't downloaded anything from Undermountain.

Okay, let's be clear about this. There are three types of multiplayer games you can play:

(1) unhosted modules - requires every player download it to play mplayer
(2) hosted modules - only the DM needs to have it (this is where I would put EFU although EFU is a HUGE module - it doesn't truly classify as a PW)
(3) persistent worlds - no download required

As I understand it, options 1 and 2 are alive and well in NWN2, size limitations notwithstanding and option 3 is probably toast.

You DID have to download the CEP hak for EFU though, right? What's the size of that puppy now? 196 MB +/-?

BTW, you might want to check THIS out:

http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/smar....php?itemid=52

This in particular should answer your questions about the dedicated server:

[21:22] [Dweller] [WOTR-Sesshomurai] Q: Will there be a dedicated server? If not, when?
[21:22] [[OEI]AdamB] Yes, the dedicated server application will ship with the game.

[ 07-11-2006, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Micah Foehammer ]

[Legolas]

I've my own opinion on NWN2's likely fate but no current desire to get it involved with this type of debate. I'd like to add three more general things though.

1) A sequel to a game is only any good if it contains more of the original and/or something better along the same lines. Consumers should be able to expect the sequel outdoes the original, if only because it's made in a time where technology and insights have taken a few extra strides forward. OE made this unspoken promise upon agreeing to create a NWN2.
With the most interesting ideas making it into the original, less is usually to be expected of the storyline, so this in particular needs compensation in other areas. In the case of NWN, the storyline is not as important as the other aspects of the game.

2) You do not have to download a module before playing it in NWN2. You have to download a copy of the walkmesh, which is hopefully done without the player noticing.

3) There are currently two types of game, single player requiring you have the module, and multiplayer, requiring the host has the module. Whether the host has to be around in-game as player or DM, or not in the case of a dedicated server, is not much of a distinction in that respect. EfU would fall into the dedicated server category, which is not limited to persistant worlds alone.

[ 07-11-2006, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[robertthebard]

Right, however you can put up a module to play without the dedicated server, and that requires that the host be online to play. I've actually gamed in a couple of those on bad days...
And yes, everybody that wants to play on EfU has to have all the hak files, including CEP, but that's not actually the module, just another hak, albeit it's a huge hak. Not so large as the one Z just released last month though. But even with that, it's not the whole module...

[Ziroc]

Actually, they did say "We took everything in NWN, and are adding new features to it" then he went on to say they gutted the graphics engine..

It was one of the first videos.
Also, They didn't even HAVE anyone working on the DM client until word got out at E3 that it wouldn't be added, then they scrambled to cover their ass and got someone on it.

So, if no one bitched, you would have NEVER seen the DM client. Sitting around and just letting game companies release complete shit that is full of bugs like they have been is getting old as hell.

And most people are sick of it, and will destroy a game company verbally and financially if they screw up these days..

I watch games being developed, and watch closely how they release press on their games over the years, and it's a known fact that when you see them being stingy at releasing new SCREENSHOTS (I mean, shit... SCREENSHOTS!) then they are hiding something BAD.

Saying they gotta 'authorize' the release of screenshots. They are bullshitting us. By this time, Game reviewers should have copies--at least betas) and be posting 100's of screens (like most other games do), but noooo, not NWN2.

I've seen it all before, and we'll see it again. I just hope to god they stay in business long enough to release patches to fix the bugs and missing content that will/won't be in NWN2.

[ 07-13-2006, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Ziroc ]

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by robertthebard: Right, however you can put up a module to play without the dedicated server, and that requires that the host be online to play. I've actually gamed in a couple of those on bad days... And yes, everybody that wants to play on EfU has to have all the hak files, including CEP, but that's not actually the module, just another hak, albeit it's a huge hak. Not so large as the one Z just released last month though. But even with that, it's not the whole module...

Exactly. Having to download the mod is called "Sloppy programming". Sad... That is another reason I will not be using NWN2. (Unless they change this and other things.)

[WOLFGIR]

I agree with Ziroc ALOT here, whiners that come with contructive and called for criticism are very necessary. Afterall, they want us to believe their game is good so that we buy and play it. They are dependant of US, not the other way around. Lately being around on forums it tends to be an idolizing cult of gamemakers. Fanbouys and girls make them out to be heroes out for the soley good of our interst in their minds - bullshit!

They are hardworking business people trying to earn a buck and they see to our interest mainly when it will coincide with something that the community like and the increase of sale is supporting this Its called economics and a factor that can only be quelled by consumer rights.

I was over at the HOMM V site and checked out both the "Give them more time to develope" movement as well as the "No StarForce!".

Both succeded, one was a plee the other a mather of fact that people just wouldn't buy things that could crap up their computers. I don't know how many was banned over at Ubisofts original forums over this, but they both got through. I bought the game when I knew that they would remove Star Force and develop it so it wouldn't need tonnes of patches.

Now the big question, when we hear so many rumours about NWN 2 being rushed and that the game obviously is ahead of the "original" publishing plan, remembering that it is ATARI we are speaking about, that OE has Troika people onboard that used the same arguments with ToEE, why shouldn't we moan and whine and why oh hells of bloody flaming consumer agonies, don't they listen to us?

Want an answer to that, hold on here it is...

$

I don't know about you guys but where I work we go out over our heads to put an effort to make our customars happy, pleased and we aim to give them the best product, then they will tell others and we will sell more. Simple. Now we don't tell them that we think they are neither stupid nor that they are potential criminals and can't be trusted ith our products. Also, we don't come to their houses and put some extra tape or plaster or whatnot on it after awhile since it didn't work when we sold it.

There are many differencies selling a physical product and a digital product, but don't forget that if people just shut up and takes what they get and are handed and pay for that, we all get the bad products. Consumer insights IS a big word for many corporations out there and it should be just as important for game developers and release houses.

Download extras, download this, patches here and there, copy protections and crap instead of a solid complete product? Stop hyping it and finish the bloody product and then sell it to us and you will see that it will be a big hit, just as NWN.

[SHO-VA]

Actualy, at this point right now, To play on multi-player will require the player to have a copy of the mod, not just the walkmesh. They have stated they are working to make it only walkmesh needed, but they havent gotten to that point yet.
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums...4650&forum=100

that is from darren monohan the executive producer.

[Albromor]

Speaking of PW's and NWN the following comes from Dave Gaider,lead writer at BIOWARE concerning a question about their Dragon Age Game and the possibility of Persistant Worlds:

Quote: Posted 06/23/06 16:15:35 (GMT) by D2rhino
Will the game have the option for persistent worlds?

Dave's Response:
I doubt it, since DA has very different goals as a project from a game like NWN, but just as with NWN we aren't specifically ruling it out. Remember that even with NWN the fact that PW's were possible was only happy circumstance -- they were never an intended nor a supported feature.


Interesting...