Anti-piracy or anti-customer ?

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Luvian As a matter of fact, I've been working on a fantasy novel and the world it's set in for a couple of years. If I do finish it, I plan to do my best to find a way to give people a free option. BAEN gives free download versions of books so that people gets interested and buy them in stores. Don't bother robbing me, twit. I will cheerfully put up the stuff for free myself. Because I am quite confident that any "losses" I sustain will be more than made up for by the expansion in the size of my audience."[/I] --Eric Flint

Why would someone go out and buy what they already read for free?

There are loads of popular sites with large audiences struggling to monetize.

Like Wikipedia. Jimbo is practically begging for donations.

Turning a free product into a paid product is a difficult path.

[SpiritWarrior]

Yes, I know it's a play on "Economics", was poking fun at the whole discussion really, since we're talking about buying vs. stealing and you recommended a purchase.

Actually, I do agree with the "It's only a donut..." assumption, because it is indeed true. As a young child, I went through a phase where I stole small things from stores (like candy or sweets) thinking i'd not get caught because it is something small. I remember my parents pointing the camera's out to me, I was too young to even realize they could see me.

I know a woman to this day, who steals stuff from dollar stores. I laugh at her and shake my head and have said to her "If you're gonna get caught for something, get caught for something big". She rationalizes it with things like "Oh, they're only earrings (the cheap kind) nobody will miss them" or "They won't notice a can of soda". In a way she is right. Most stores do not prosecute if the merchandise stolen is minimal or amounts to under $50. Walmart has such a policy. That does not make it right, of course, and they still call the cops, but it is worth noting that they don't bother with charges if the amount falls below a certain integer.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by SpiritWarrior Yes, I know it's a play on "Economics", was poking fun at the whole discussion really, since we're talking about buying vs. stealing and you recommended a purchase. Actually, I do agree with the "It's only a donut..." assumption, because it is indeed true. As a young child, I went through a phase where I stole small things from stores (like candy or sweets) thinking i'd not get caught because it is something small. I remember my parents pointing the camera's out to me, I was too young to even realize they could see me. I know a woman to this day, who steals stuff from dollar stores. I laugh at her and shake my head and have said to her "If you're gonna get caught for something, get caught for something big". She rationalizes it with things like "Oh, they're only earrings (the cheap kind) nobody will miss them" or "They won't notice a can of soda". In a way she is right. Most stores do not prosecute if the merchandise stolen is minimal or amounts to under $50. Walmart has such a policy. That does not make it right, of course, and they still call the cops, but it is worth noting that they don't bother with charges if the amount falls below a certain integer.

Yes, and so people think - it's only a 99c song.

Never mind that in days past, a single song would sell an entire $15 album, thus meaning more records could be made, and new musical vocabulary got introduced into the public lexicon via "obscure album tracks" that took time to "grow on you".

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Yorick Why would someone go out and buy what they already read for free? There are loads of popular sites with large audiences struggling to monetize. Like Wikipedia. Jimbo is practically begging for donations. Turning a free product into a paid product is a difficult path.

Have you even read the article Yorick? We're not talking about some random guy in his garage, we're talking about one of the biggest Science Fiction publisher, and they have been doing it for nine years. It works. They get more sales from putting books free online. They even distribute DVDs full of novels.

It is like you said; the rules changed and you do not know how to adapt. BAEN seem to have found a way to.

Why would someone buy anything if they can get it for free? Go back and read that quote you tried to discredit. As Eric Flint and BAEN have been doing it successfully for nine years. I think their opinion is pretty much backed up by facts in this case, nine years of it.

It's funny how those taking draconian approaches to fighting off piracy are losing the race and money, while those that chose instead to compete with the pirates are making a bigger profit. Could it be they realized piracy is here to stay and for better or worse pirates are business rivals?

[Kyrvias]

Piracy, banditry, theft. Nothing is new here. The only thing that has changed over time is the tools.

The protection used by those companies is completely overboard, to speak frankly. Especially online registration. I can understand checking a CD key and, though those can be replicated by software nowadays, it was a simple procedure that generally ensured you had bought the game. The keyword is "Online". If I'm going to buy a single player game for some trip into the middle of nowhere with no speakable internet connection, I want to know. Especially since any Single Player game generally isn't expected to *have* to be connected to the interwebs to work.

So then, I try to return it, but lo and behold, I can't, because the box has already been opened, or other such "tampering". I very much agree with the original post that they should put it on the box, but I also agree that they should find an alternate way to do it. (Anti piracy, that is)

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally Posted by Luvian Of course not. They know full well these protection schemes only affect their legit customers, as pirates have to remove them before they can play.

These so called "free" hacked or pirated versions are often less stable with numerous bugs that do NOT appear in the legally licensed version. So what exactly is the pirate getting?

As a full time moderator for dedicated NWN2 fansite, I can assure you that I have seen numerous examples of various strange bugs, (e.g. the crafting system failure in the OC, various spawn and script failures in both the OC and MotB) that are SOLELY related to trying to play a torrented copy of the game. In many cases those bugs make the torrented copy unplayable beyond certain points. I won't even debate the point as I KNOW it's true. Not surprisingly, a significant number of those users with strange bugs seem to come from singapore and se asia - hotbeds for pirating activities.

So tell me again how the DRM systems do NOT inhibit piracy?

I'm afraid I'm squarely in Yorick's corner on this one. Your arguments about second hand sales DON'T provide a valid argument for dispensing with DRM schemes. In essence, when you buy a game you are buying a LICENSE to the software, nothing more, and as such you do NOT have the right to re-sell the software. Read the EULAs some time.

You may not like that argument, which is your right, and it's also your right NOT to buy a license to software that restricts your usage and prohibits your resale of the license. In that case, you can express your displeasure with your wallet.

[Chewbacca]

Stardock is a another example of a software company that bucks the DRM/copyright paranoia trend and remains a success despite the challenges.

EZ to respect a company who decides that 0% of their legit customers will run into problems using software because of an imperfect scheme. DRM type schemes will remain anti-customer so long as even one legit customer couldn't use the product because of it.

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Micah Foehammer These so called "free" hacked or pirated versions are often less stable with numerous bugs that do NOT appear in the legally licensed version. So what exactly is the pirate getting?

You are misinformed on the subject, Micah. A handful of pirated games do run into a couple of problems on the first couple of days they get pirated. But those gets fixed in a matter of days. Now if the version of the game in question is an early beta copy that is different, but it as simple to fix for a pirate as waiting for the retail version to get out and download that.

Just go to megagames.com. All these no-cd cracks? That's the hacks. There is nothing more, nothing less. Go install one for Neverwinter Night 2 and see if you get any new bugs. You won't.

Pirate groups like Reloaded pretty much spend all their time on piracy. They are the ones who released the Sims 3 early, as well as countless other games. You may run into problems running a no-cd patch from a random independent guy, but Reloaded get their things straight. So do the other big pirates groups. They do make a mistake every once in a while, but a new patch is available in the next day or two.

I know for a fact because every single game I install I get a no-cd patch for it. Yes, I even did for Neverwinter Nights 2 and Mask of the Betrayer. A quick count through my program files tells me I have 41 games installed. Do you really think I'm going to swap cds all the time?

I'm afraid I'm squarely in Yorick's corner on this one. Your arguments about second hand sales DON'T provide a valid argument for dispensing with DRM schemes.

As Chewbacca said Stardock sold all their games using only a simple serial number and they are doing quite well. It's more than enough to keep an honest customer honest. You won't stop the dishonest customer from dropping by megagames.com if he wants to.

Tell me. How at all is a limited number of installations going to have any effect in stopping piracy? Give me one example where it will prevent a pirate from downloading a no-cd crack. And how about online activation? How is it preventing anyone from using a crack?

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Luvian Have you even read the article Yorick? We're not talking about some random guy in his garage, we're talking about one of the biggest Science Fiction publisher, and they have been doing it for nine years. It works. They get more sales from putting books free online. They even distribute DVDs full of novels. It is like you said; the rules changed and you do not know how to adapt. BAEN seem to have found a way to. Why would someone buy anything if they can get it for free? Go back and read that quote you tried to discredit. As Eric Flint and BAEN have been doing it successfully for nine years. I think their opinion is pretty much backed up by facts in this case, nine years of it.

So you're presenting ONE BOOK as proof?
Ok well, lets look at declining Newspaper sales, as people get their news online for free, declining CD sales, let's look at how piracy affected sales of Wolverine. Sorry man, but one exception bucking the trend proves the rule.

I repeat - why would someone buy a thing they already own for free?
Be that a song, a book, an experience, a movie, a meal.
Answer the question, don't go parading one exception, for it remains the point.

So let me help you out and give one possible answer: gratuitous charity.
Like people giving money to a busker for playing, after they've already enjoyed the experience for free.
And let me tell you, more people do NOT pay the busker than do. It's a hard hard slog.

[Yorick]

Originally Posted by Luvian It's funny how those taking draconian approaches to fighting off piracy are losing the race and money, while those that chose instead to compete with the pirates are making a bigger profit. Could it be they realized piracy is here to stay and for better or worse pirates are business rivals?

Funny how those countries that had internationally agreed copyright protection laws that protected intellectual property, which then enabled artists to become professional and thus create more art are now being populated by uneducated children who do not understand the concepts of intellectual property and copyright and so are diminishing their culture's ability to create art.

Meanwhile, those Asian countries that had no copyright laws, which had tiny amounts of art being produced due to rampant piracy of CDs and movies, have no realised stringent legal protection is the only way to ensure a local artistic industry thrives, and so are now ENACTING copyright laws.

Sorry man. But I side with prosecuting people who walk up to an artist, steal their work and then either sell it or keep it. Just as I side with prosecuting anyone who steals from another person. Because protection of personal property is a foundation upon which our society rests.

Similarly, professional art's very existence rests on artists' intellectual property being protected by law.