The practicality of hybrid type characters (long analysis)

[fung]

I've always thought that in wiz 8, the fighter and bishop are fairly overpowered as compared to the rest of the professions. A large reason for this is that fighter/caster types i.e. monks, valkyries, lords do not have enough magical abilities to make fore-going "berkserk" worthwile.

The ninja, ranger, monk, valk, samurai, lord etc. all learn spells at clvl 5. But whether investing previous skill points into magic is largely debatable.

1) The first group is a special case
Faerie ninja- I would say that this character benefits the most from learning magic. Faerie ninjas are built for the purpose of using CoC, and since the CoC is cursed, spellcasting is often the only way to engage in range combat (besides uncursing constantly with bishop). In addition, they access the alchemy skill-book, this is great coz they mix potions (helps makes money and practices skill at the same time). imagine if the CoC was NOT cursed, along with thrown criticals, they will be absolute BEASTS.

2) The second griup consist of melee characters who access magic...i.e. Samurai, lords, monks, valk

Most combat sequences, even with melee heavy parties, begin with at least one or two rounds of ranged combat. This time is used for defensive spells (element shield, soul shield), buff spells (superman, haste) and offensive ailment/cloud spells (toxic cloud).
Hence during this time, the samurai or lord can cast a couple of spells and weaken the enemy from range b4 engaging in melee. I suppose they are useful for the "effect spells" such as insanity, turncoat etc. But if u are after damage, then I honestly believe that if u arm your charcter with a 3Xbow with decent ammo, this will give more dmg than any spell u can cast. (I'm assuming u don't excessively practise all the realms to 100 by casting knock-knock or mindread repeatedly for a ridiculosly long time...I'm kinda a purist gamer [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

3)The third group are range attackers with spells (i.e. rangers or critical throwing ninjas). personally, I find spell learning is pretty useless for this group. They attack from range hence every time u cast a spell in combat u are sarcrificing one round of attack, hence sacrificing damage, instant kill possibibilty and training your range combat skills. Plus they access the alchemy book which does not give them useful "effect spells i.e. turncoat, insanity etc). Any damage spells they can cast is dwarfed by their awesome ranged poweress.

comments welcomed...

[Wereboar]

I don't group them, since there aren't that many hybrids, and for me, they are quite different.

Samurai: If you use bloodlust early, he falls into your first group - no access to range weapon, thus use spells for distance attacks.
In addition, he can use Infinity helmet, which means that he can cast his spells in the late game without caring about remeining spell points.
I usually buy wizardy points with them, and use some spells in easy fights to train realms early (esp. fire).
Side note: I usually didn't wield bloodlust, since its cursed, and you hit much less in berserk mode early. But in my last game, i used it with my rogue (first time i had one), and noticed that it grants an extra swing. Now i'll use it with future samurai (which is one of my favourite classes).

Lord, Valkury: Its useful to get the spells up to level 3 or 4 for him. Another character for buff and heal spells. I'd buy skill points for him to be able to learn this spells.
He can wear infinity hemet too, but priest realm has only late offensive magic, so this isn't that much help.

Monk: Has access to some very nice spells, for example haste and psionic blast (very nice, since it always affects a whole group).
Can't wear infinit helmet.
I would use him as a spellcaster if i don't have psionic or bishop. But since i never had a monk without one of these yet, i mainly ignore spells with them.

Ranger: He mostly uses range attacks anyway, thus there seems to be no point in learning many spells.
However, they have access to some curing spells, which can be very helpful (depending on the party). And alchemy has a good number of attack spells for large numbers of enemies. And they can wear infinity helmet.
In addition, they don't have many skills they need to improve. Bow, ranged attack, scouting, maybe sword for mooks. Thats all. They soon have skill points left.
I usually buy alchemy up to level 15, then increase it by using heal/cure spells and making potions. When bow and rangestrike are at max, i increase alchemy further. When he has the level to learn the high level spells, alchemy usually is high enough.

Ninja: Unless you use CoC, ninjas have very many skills they want to ge good at. Unless its the only alchemist in the party, i won't invest in spellcasting with them.

Generally: I don't invest skill points in the invidual reals (fire...) with any hybrid. They go up slowly by some use (except divine for heal). But once they have infinity helmet, i only use spellcasting against some weak opponents, and they impove quite fast to ~60.

Side note to damage calculations: You compare spell damage to 3xXbow with decent ammo. First, you often have no access to them (no gadgeteer in party, and won't train Madras just to make them). Second, with 2 party members equipped with them, bolts run out very fast. In this game, i bought out all plain bolts from all merchants, and it was not enough. And i don't like resting just to have the shops restock (and i don't save and reload if they don't restock what i need).
Against few opponents, a ranger usually is more deadly with missiles (damage + crit chance), even with plain or mid-level ones. Agains large groups, i like to use spells in the later game.

[fung]

Yeah u made some really good points...

Samurai: if u use bloodlust then spells are great for the sammy.

Lord, Valkury, Monk: I don't know about using valks and lords for buff spells, from experience I want buff spells to be a high power level and lords ,valks, monks can't really accomplist that. Haste at lvl 7 is much better than haste at level 3 for example...In addition, i usually feel that investing in other combat oriented skills, ie. powerstrike or reflextion pays off better than points into magic.

Ranger: I also invest into alchemy magic for my ranger. That was bcoz I was a hobbit ranger and I had no place to put my points besides ranged combat and bow. if I was a mook, close combat, sowrd skill and powerstrike will all get some points and I will ignore magic

[Wereboar]

I don't know about using valks and lords for buff spells, from experience I want buff spells to be a high power level and lords ,valks, monks can't really accomplist that.

For example, bless and guardian angel are very low-level spells, so hybrids can cast them at higher levels quite easy. Later, they might cast superman or even soul shield at level 4-5 instead of shooting,
and the priest or (for me usually) bishop can cast other spells.

Haste at lvl 7 is much better than haste at level 3 for example...

I wrote that i'd use monk as spellcaster if he's the only one for psionic realm. Don't know what i would do with monk + bard. With a bishop or psionic, don't use spells with monk.

In addition, i usually feel that investing in other combat oriented skills, ie. powerstrike or reflextion pays off better than points into magic.

I usually invest skill points early, to be able to learn level 3 spells. Then, the skills slowly advance on their own if you use them regulary.
Then, i might come back late in the game when most other important skills are maxxed.

My first attempts on ninja and monk were quite bad - maybe because i always used 3 skill points on level up for the magic scool. It works much better with samurai in my experience.

[Rhea]

I hadn't actually sat down and thought about it, but I like the hybrid characters.

For most of them I try to give them ranged/thrown and melee early on, then as they get higher in levels and gain decent spells, I'll let them use cursed weapons and cast spells in the first round or two. Their magic goes up pretty fast.

The faerie ninja can be invaluable. And I like the Samuari. I'm beginning to think that for all hybrid fighters, switching them over for a level to whatever magic user supports their spells and then switching them back isn't a bad tactic. I've done this several times with Samurai to Mage to Samurai, and it does grab them more spell points when they can start casting.

I love Rangers, too, and they have a nice selection of spells available.

I dunno. I think it's a matter of taste. The hybrid fighters take more time and care to develop, but I get bored with tanks, so I enjoy them.

Forgot to add my other favorite thing about the hybrid fighters - once they can cast spells, they can learn protective spells my bishop would have to spend spell points casting.

[ 07-31-2002, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Rhea ]

[armakh]

IMHO, except for the sammy with bloodlust and the ninja with CoC, I put all of my constant buff spells with my bishop, because it's more important to develop his magic than your hybrids. With the faerie ninja in the group, it makes it very easy for your bishop to concentrate on wizardry, psionics, and divinity without having to worry about alchemy until all your other slots are suitably buffed.

Right now, I'm running a 4-member party with only hybrids, and I am not satisfied with their magic capabilities since I'm used to the bishop. I'm fizzling spells in the umpani and t'rang areas that I only fizzled on arnika road before.

I've found that my hybrids make decent supplemental spellcasters for things like element shield, soul shield, and stuff, but I won't count on them for any sort of magical damage.

The only realm skill I ever build up is mental for my monk so that he can do things like ego whip and stuff. His mental spells do more damage than throwing does. I'm still struggling with exactly how to deal with ranged combat for monks. I'm not impressed with his throwing, and I used the z-bo as a secondary once, but I won't give up the fists of fury.

[Bomb]

Gotta love my infinity helm wearing samurai wasting all available spellpoints, and have regenerated most of the SP's by the time I meet the next group of monsters. Nuclear blast isn't quite what I was excpecting tho, but I trust it gets better once her fire skill and level increases. Freeze all is ok when it works and banish is very nice against undead, don't leave home without it

Basically what I've done is; low levels I concentrated in melee/ranged weapon skills. Then I put bloodlust in her hand, and spent points/practised magic. Now that she's using uncursed weapon, I spent points in bow a few times, and now I can't anymore. And I let the statunlocked personal skills go up on their own. Their not that great, so I won't waste points in them on level up.

That's pretty much how I developed my ninja, with the exception that she's still using cursed weapon (CoC). And there's nothing like throwing the death cloud on that bigass gang of monsters, and watch half of them die in the first few rounds...

Usually what I do in the first round against casters is; soul shield with bishop, element shield with samurai and death cloud with ninja (unless they're real low casters, then my bishop starts with haste). Then the ninja just throws what seems appropriate at the enemy, depending on resistances, and samurai uses nuclear blast every round until the enemy is at close range (unless the enemy has high fire resistance, or they're undead). Good thing about those "hit all" spells is that, the more there are enemise, better they get compared to the bow.

It's hard to say. I'm happy with the magic from my hybrids, probably mainly because I've spent some sweat and tears practising their skills. Usually when I meet a group of easy mobs, I take them down using only spells from the less developed realms on my chars, thus getting some practise in them. Besides, I think I gotta get them good at casting, since there's just the samurai, ninja and bishop in my group.

Pointless babble I guess (from the looks of it now), and just my 2 cents

[otter]

You can practise magic and max all four Schools in a few 'game' hours, so there's no reason to 'waste' any points beyond the first 15 anyway, so you just keep pumping Combat. Even though this only builds one Realm, it lets you read whatever Spellbooks your Caster level allows.
I really appreciate the Lord's Dual bonus; combined with the Mauler's Mace bonus and Diamond Eyes, this really mashes a lotta stuff.
Same deal with Sams' Sword bonus, makes Dual work better, esp. with Ench Wak.
A non-Faerie Ninja (Hobbit is my fave) with Boom. Shir. in one hand and a pile of Death Stars in the other, gets a crit every third round or so of Ranged. Plus they can PP & L&T.
Monks' Martial Arts bonus and Haste capability make them a frequent choice, especially in a small party.
More Portals!

[Oruboris]

Early on I use pure casters for the buffs you can leave running full time, but soon after you hit the Trynton mana font, the casters will progress to a point where they don't gain much from these spells. Fortunatly, soon after the hybreds learn them, and can advance quickly by keeping them running all the time. Saves mana for the more important massive slaughter a bishop with a ton of level 7 spells can do.

I also use the hybreds to heal and rest the casters and themselves after combat.

Recently finished with a 4 hobbit party: sam, valk, and 2 bishops. By the end, all 4 could portal, and even the sam and valk could summon a decent elemental. Great fun!

Oru

[Bitoku Kishi]

I used a pure hybrid party for my second game, and concluded that this is possibly the best possible combination in the long run. My team consists of:

1. (M) Dracon Lord
2. (F) Human Valkyrie
3. (M) Elf Samurai
4. (F) Faerie Ninja
5. (M) Gnome Monk
6. (F) Hobbit Ranger
(no RPCs)

This is a tough team to bring up, but I had the experience from playing through once already, so it was manageable for me. Now at level 25, this team is just unbelievable. Let me list some of the benefits.

- All characters can fight well, especially at close combat.
- All characters have learned at least one 7th level spell.
- Six portal casters.
- Three Elemental summoners.
- Four Helms of Infinity equipped for regenerating mana (Lord, Valkyrie, Samurai, Ranger).
- The remaining two members get Robes of Rejuvination (Monk) and Amulet of Nebdar (Faerie), giving EVERYONE mana regeneration.
- Great armor can be worn by four of the characters for defense (Lord, Valkyrie, Samurai, Ranger), and the other two have Stealth so they're never hit (Monk and Ninja)
- Everyone can use an incredible assortment of highly damaging weapons.
- Three natural critical hit characters. Four if you count the Ranger using ranged weapons.
- Each character is essentially balanced and self-sufficient. I don't have to bother trying to protect a Bishop from physical harm, for instance.

I always put points into spellcasting when levelling up, btw. For all of them except the Ninja, that is. For her, I'd put 3 into Pickpocketing, 3 into Locks & Traps, and 3 into Alchemy. For the others, I'd put 3 points into their main spellcasting category, and distribute the rest throughout their elemental spellcasting areas. The rest of the skills they needed were relatively easy to grow just by using them. In the end I have 6 expert spellcasters with incredible fighting abilities all around. I can't really think of a better team than this.

[ 08-01-2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Bitoku Kishi ]