Alice in Wonderland - a nice fairy tale or a sick, sick story?

[Sazerac]

And just where would we intrepid adventurers be without the Jabberwock? We never would have had a vorpal sword to wield if Carroll hadn't invented it in his nonsense rhyme. (Note the qualities of the BG2 vorpal sword...instadecapitation...with the lines in the passage of the "Jabberwocky".)

-Sazerac

[ 05-20-2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Sazerac ]

[Grand-Ranger]

Well I dont know taht much about Alice, but alot of Disney moives ahve been based on much darker themes then they put out on the animated moives.

[Epona]

For those who haven't read it, the entire text can be found online here

[Lavindathar]

I have to sorta agree with uss here, LC was a drug user, and the story was originally based/related too experiances with drugs.

BUT - as you have seen, it comes out as a childrens tale...so both points are valid. From research, he told it to his niece, once finished, as it came out how it did. But it wasn't intended for his niece.

[Sazerac]

OK, before everyone jumps off the deep end here:

Lewis Carroll, who, BTW, was first a mathematician rather than a children's author, did smoke opium, as did many gentlemen in Victorian England. It was not considered a social stigma then; in fact, it was a sign of opulence and being of the "privileged class." The equivalent nowadays would be someone having a glass of Dom Perignon champagne. Since lysergic acid dyethylimide (LSD) would not even be invented until the middle of the 20th century, it is ludicrous to think that he ingested "acid." Even Arthur Conan Doyle had his famous fictional detective, Sherlock Holmes, indulge in opium as was the wont of his class and culture. There is no secret "demi-monde" being implied here. The ONLY thing that even hints at the opium use would be the caterpillar with the hookah pipe, since the hookah was regularly used to ingest the opium.

Lewis Carroll made up the series of "Alice" stories recounting them to his "niece" Alice (who really wasn't related, but was a close family friend) and her other friends, while boating with their parents. The young girls were charmed by the stories and clamored for Carroll to write them down for them, and so he began to write Alice's adventures, embellishing them to the form in which we find them now. Undoubtedly some of the more vivid imagery of the stories were inspired by Carroll's visions while under the influence of opium, but since opium is a depressant (along with morphine, heroin, demerol, and other opium derivatives), it's probably highly unlikely that he was able to write, much less to function, while enjoying his "nip."

Also: Carroll's works are laced with political satire, of a very pointed nature. The savage Queen who yells "Off with her head!" is a caricature of Queen Victoria (as is the illustration with the heavy bulldog-like jowls), while the timid, servile, cowering King pokes fun at Prince Albert and his "panty-whipped" status in the British court. The Walrus and the Carpenter were said to be caricatures of Benjamin Disraeli (Walrus) and Lord Mountbatten (Carpenter), as were the Red and White queens of Looking-glass land.

So...maniacal? Nope. Pointedly satirical? Absolutely.

-Sazerac

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

And a funny fact, after having read Alice in Wonderland, Queen Elizabeth decided she loved his books and ordered a subject to ask him for a copy of all of his works, and although he suggested against it, she would have none of it and was later awash with a collection of mathematical books.

[Cloudbringer]

Thank you, Sazzie, for setting that straight!
There is even a lot of mathematics and theory in the work. Alice's talk with the red queen being one of them.

[Lavindathar]

Even though they are depresents, I'm sure he would remember the "high" parts, and I think they show through heavily in the novel and especially the cartoon film......

But if you say it was aimed at his kid, okies.....But there have been examples of hidden storylines and points....

I.e - Rainbow and The Magic Roundabout?

Oh, and Captain Pugwash....Seaman Stains.... [img]tongue.gif[/img] Quality.

[Epona]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: Oh, and Captain Pugwash....Seaman Stains.... [img]tongue.gif[/img] Quality.

Ahhh Lavi, I'm very much afraid that is an urban myth. There was no character called Seaman Stains, nor Master Bates, neither Roger the Cabin Boy. Personally I think the series would have been enriched by such underhanded scullduggery by the creators, but alas it is, as they say, a big fat porky.

Of course I am old enough to remember when Captain Pugwash was first screened

[Lavindathar]

How come I heard it got banned for this then?

Well, Rainbow and The Magic Roundabout.

Hmph!

Check here for the truth - http://www.snopes2.com/radiotv/tv/pugwash.htm

[ 05-20-2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]